Trust and Values in the City? Who benefits from the City of London Corporation?

 

Occupy London has been passed information about the discussion at this year’s Mansion House Conference, held by the City of London Corporation on Thursday 27th October 2011, entitled Trust and Values in the City.

As part of Occupy London’s mission to create a more just society, address social and economic inequalities and fight for real democracy, we’d like to call on your help to find out a little more about this conference.

Comments we find particularly intriguing include “the people in tent city are ill informed”, [we] “wouldn’t be interested in what the tent city had to say” and why “the Lord Mayor’s investigation made only 1 reference to customers. All the conversation was about responsibility to shareholders.”

Consider this our small gift to the new Lord Mayor David Wooton [1] and a leaving gift to the outgoing Lord Mayor, Alderman Michael Bear, as well as Stuart Fraser, Corporation of London policy chairman, who announced yesterday that he would be stepping down. [2]

In the spirit of Occupy London’s call for transparency in its recent counteroffer to the City of London Corporation [3], there are a few questions that we’d like your help with:

  • Can you shed any more light on the Trust and Values in the City conference?
  • Were you at that conference? Can you identify anyone who was?
  • What is the role of Robert Potter, Chairman of the HR Advisory Group?
  • What are the implications of what he is saying?
  • Why does this Trust and Values in the City conference not talk about customers and people?
  • Why has Stuart Fraser, effective chief exec of the Corporation of London, left his job so suddenly?

  • The Event

    At the event there were speakers from across the City of London, Cass Business School, City HR Association, Chartered Institute for Securities and Investment, Institute of Business Ethics, Lloyds Banking Group, TheCityUK, CISI, Berwin Leighton Paisner and Ken Costa [4].

    Occupy London has been provided with a copy of the agenda for this event, together with some notes written against a number of the speakers. We provide these as scans below for your perusal.

    Agenda Page 1
    Agenda Page 2

    We appeal to our friends on Twitter, IRC, Facebook and all other social networks for assistance in verifying the veracity of these comments and their implications. If the reported comments are accurate, it is surely time we questioned what kind of trust and value it is that the City of London Corporation is really concerned with.

    The notes we have give some clues as to the purpose of the event: “Presenting results of Lord Mayor Alderman’s initiative “Restoring Trust in the City”, “to seek to identify, recognise, encourage & embed best practise & ethical values in all businesses which operate in the City”. The Restoring Trust initiative is supported by Cass Business School at City University London, TheCityUK, Tomorrow’s Company and Berwin Leighton Paisner as acknowledged at the bottom of the agenda.

    Opening the event, at 9am, there was a welcome from the Rt Hon The Lord Mayor, Alderman Michael Bear. [5]

    Against the name of speaker Richard Sermon, Chairman of the Advisory Board, who spoke at 9.10am regarding a summary of the Objectives and Progress Report, there is a note saying: “Important to return to growth for jobs”.

    At 9.45am Robert Potter, Chairman of the HR Advisory Group, spoke on the topic of Focus on Personal Values and Development, looking specifically at Performance Management against Values; ‘The Power of Youth’ – New Entrants; TheCityUK New Generation Vision. On the second page of the notes it details what Robert Potter said:

    “Review with New Generation younger people in the city concluded key things that need to happen are:

    1) Challenge the [unknown] short term culture which is driving self-interested behaviour
    2) Public communication of the value created by the sector – (This appears to be a big concern of Robert Potter)
    [sic]
    3) Senior management should take more responsibility for addressing unethical behaviour – & set the tone for attitudes and standards.

    “Audience member suggests that the group also considered the views from outside including young people at the tent city at St Paul’s. Mr Potter replied “that the people in tent city are ill informed”, [sic] If was going to listen he wouldn’t be interested in what the tent city had to say. he would want to speak to people with something interesting to say. [sic]

    “Several comments were made by audience members that the speakers from the Lord Mayor investigation made only 1 reference to customers. All the conversation was about responsibility to shareholders. The speaker from Scotland did talk about balanced responsibility. Tony Manwaring [CEO, Tomorrow’s Company] suggested external voices, are listened to saying he didn’t …” [the document becomes unreadable at this point]

    At 12.50pm Ken Costa talked about “Reconnecting the Financial and the Ethical”. The notes state that Ken, who has been recently appointed by the Bishop of London to head up the new St Paul’s Initiative, said: “It is important that we listen carefully. The protest includes people from all walks of life. In a survey in the US 70% were sympathetic to “Occupy Wall Street” [.] We are perhaps at a tipping point. The cost of economic freedom is moral vigilance [.] We need to be underpinned by values of justice – humility – service [.] We may be uncomfortable with it but we need to learn the language of morality.”

    Notes

    [1] Lord Mayor David Wooton says the City’s harshest critics are within
    [2] City’s chief to step down
    [3] Occupy London responds to Corporation of London proposal
    [4] Ken Costa’s article in the Financial Times on why the City dhould heed the discordant voices of St Paul’s. More on Ken Costa’s mission at the St Paul’s Initiative.
    [5] http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/00D23B12-1E3B-481E-93BA-AD1450725069/0/MC_SP_
    TrustandValuesSymposiumv1.pdf

    [6] On Sunday 16th October at an assembly of over 500 people on the steps of St Paul’s Cathedral, Occupy London collectively agreed the initial statement below. Please note, like all forms of direct democracy, the statement will always be a work in progress.
    1 The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.
    2 We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities dis/abilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.
    3 We refuse to pay for the banks’ crisis.
    4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
    5 We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.
    6 We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9thNovember, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.
    7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.
    8 We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.
    9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

     

    105 Responses to “Trust and Values in the City? Who benefits from the City of London Corporation?”

    1. Completely struggling to come -up with ideas. The party is over, best pack-up & be remembered rather than fade into insignificance !!

      We now know why various bodies dropped their impending legal action – their advisors knew that the movement would fade quicker by boredom setting-in, than by motivating stronger support by trying to force the camp off the premises.

      Whomsoever is running things down there, make the brave decision, pack-up the camp and hold one last march out with flags flying – the only honourable way to go. Do not let the movement stagnate like this & fall to bits in dribs and drabs.

       
      • lol!

         
        • Who are you working for

           
          • OCCUPY

            In London ,New York and Bangkok
            Occupy is all the talk
            London ,New York and Belfast
            Wall Street thought it wouldn’t last
            The Politian’s come and go
            Yet we see the movement grow
            These banker boys each sold their soul
            Now Satan’s minion, is their role
            With Ponzi schemes and pension fraud
            They’ve made the Euro ,and the Dollar god
            These bankers crawl in self-made slime
            Yet think, we see them , as sublime
            When the starving masses rise
            These idiots look up, in quaint surprise
            As if they never, ever knew
            Their devilish mix, their mammon brew
            Would not bubble and burst, out of their hellish Ponzi pot
            Where theft and graft, and greed were got
            Right now the 99% do rise
            And peacefully surprise
            Obama, Blair, Cameron and cronies
            Exposing them as Satan’s phonies
            The British Bullshit Corporation does tell lies to the whole nation
            We can vote X factors best
            But starve our weans and damn the rest
            We all believe that which we see
            Cause it comes out the BBC
            Yet it’s a hellish sewer
            Shat in by Satan’s biggest whoore
            In her mouth she gobbles greed
            Lies and deception, her biggest need
            Then shits out war and poverty
            Which then floats past for all to see
            Along that sewer from the BBC
            Where nothing is as it should be
            There is One Truth, then there’s yours, then there’s mine
            Until you starve, all things are fine
            Till you’re against the wall
            Then barriers will fall
            And you’ll begin to see
            99% just aren’t free
            And life and love is but a loss
            Though you 1% should fear
            ANNONYMOUS

            andy sorbie

             
            • Sorry ! i live in Hong Kong & none of the above have been mentioned in the news here. I think we had our own occupy HSBC group camped out under the podium of HSBC HQ in Queen’s Road , Central, but they seem to have “dispersed peacefully”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

               
    2. “All the conversation was about responsibility to shareholders.”

      Jay W Lorsch, the Louis Kirstein Professor of Human Relations at Harvard Business School, has been quoted for many years as maintaining that the average shareholding is held for just six days. Therefore, ‘responsibility to shareholders’ is a logical impossibility as ‘shareholders’, by Lorsch’s definition, are non-responsive on the issue of ethical corporate governance. They hold shares to make money, as one would a pile of notes under the mattress, and are therefore as capable of such analysis as a dollar bill or a pound coin.

      See http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=bio&facEmId=jlorsch for more on Professor Lorsch and his writing.

       
      • Very good point about time span of shareholding.

         
    3. In the interest of transparency, would the occupy movement be prepared to publish full details of all donations made to them, monetary or otherwise, including names of individuals and organisations, and how much they have contributed??

       
      • that would be interesting

        and I would have thought that in the name of transparancy Occupy would have done this already

         
      • I think that it would be unfair on the individuals to publish their names without consent but organisations are fair game.
        I understand that Occupy LSX now have a bank account with the Co-op with around £10k in it. That’s quite significant for an organisation not even a month old and if you are trying to tackle other organisations on transparency, you need be completely transparent yourselves so I call for Occupy to publish the following on this website:

        1. A list of every monetary donation made to date, whether it was made by an individual or organisation and if the latter, the name of the organisation. The same for all future donations.
        2. A list of all expenditure to date backed up by receipts for each item. Provide an explanation for missing receipts. The same for all future expenses.
        3. The amount of money lost to theft or otherwise cannot be accounted for.
        4. A list of all donated items where the value of an item is £10 or greater.
        5. The names of every signatory to the Co-op bank account, their occupation, qualifications, and a brief sentence on each person as to why they got involved in Occupy.
        6. Whether single, joint, or multiple signatures are required for cheques and over the counter withdrawals.
        7. The number of debits cards linked to the Co-op account and who has responsibility for them.
        8. If you have internet banking, the number of user IDs, ActivIDentity tokens, and who has responsibility for them.
        9. Weekly bank transaction and balance reports. Very easy to download in PDF format – I have a Co-op business account so know how this works.
        10. Weekly petty cash transaction and balance reports.
        11. All GA minutes in order to show consensus on spending decisions.

        I don’t believe that to be unfair – does anyone disagree? Perhaps someone could respond on behalf of Occupy?

         
        • Completely agree, occupy must practice what it preaches- I find comments I’ve made are being blocked . It seems questioning is not allowed strange how the “enemy” is more open and honest than you .

           
        • When Occupy disbands, who do the funds go to ? Hopefully not left wing groups under the disguise “supporter of Occupy LSX” !!!

           
        • Its ironic that this weeks old, miniscule movement, recieving donations without conditions is being held to account whilst the sovereign right off every citizen to create credit, given to private entities in “trust”, is held and created with absolute no regard to regulation, transperancy, accountability or DIRECTION.

          In my opinion, this is the cruz of the matter worldwide, but most especially in New York and London, the heart and center of world banking.

          The power to create credit and its direction, is the greatest force available to man, is also its greatest tool to overcome injustice, to man and enviroment.

          To my mind, all else is only possible after this core issue is resolved.

          The creation of credit can longer be left in private hands as has been well demonstrated. Nor can they be put in politicians hands as the body politic has been well and truly corrupted. A new body, in the vein of the independent justice system, needs be put in place to direct and regulate the power to create credit.
          Failing this we will never be able to deal with the problems that plague mankind as it enters a periliuos stage never before encountered by us on a plantery scale.

          This movement is world wide, thrown up in response to stress on ourselves and systems that are failing.

          At present credit is being directed at growth through consumption. An unsustainable and suicidal solution.

          Furthermore, off late, credit made possible by the perfect storm of high energy prices impossing a virtual tax on every living soul on the planet, a launderying of clean cash into the banking system in addition to Chines deposits , allowed for the creation of trillions of dollars, directed not at producing clean energy or any number of worthy endeavours, but in fact to a vast housing bubble, derivatives etc. on the whole,nothing more than fluff, but there is no doubt to who were the beneficieries and that is Wall Street and the City of London. Hundreds of billons of dollars in bonuses whilst all this money got shuffled around and around.

          To my mind the WFC was-is nothing more than a manupilation resulting in consolidation of Banks and debt. There are less Banks now and the debt is being well consolidated into one package being picked up by you…..the taxpayer! Now is that brilliant or stupid.

          I like to think that those in the Occupy Movement think it downright stupid and unsustainable and a serious threat to their livelhoods and way of life that also manifests many injustices locally and internationally.

          (Please excuse spelling and grammatical errors)

           
        • I broadly agree with this but don’t see why individual members should have to publish their personal details on this site, just the number of signatories should be sufficient.

           
    4. Given the choice between getting the details of donations from the public for a bunch of people who are taking seriously the idea of making a better world for all and getting these kind of details from City Of London Corporation:

      “3. Detail all advocacy undertaken on behalf of the banking and finance industries, since the 2008 financial crash.”

      I think it’s obvious what will be more interesting to know.

      But maybe you know better Billy, eh?

      And Roger, I don’t think the people at that camp are struggling to come up with ideas. They are managing fine. And nothing can stop an idea whose time has come.

       
      • humberdink

        I think it’s obvious what will be more interesting to know.

        Interesting doesn’t come into it and don’t try and deflect the argument. It’s hypocritical to demand transparency from an organisation while being very financially opaque yourselves – see my comment above.

         
        • humberdink,

          The movement cannot demand certain standards from others, unless it too, is prepared to match those standards. In fact, it would set a great example to others, if ‘Occupy’ was open and transparent about it’s finances.

           
      • humberdink

        it’s not a choice between London Corp and u giving these details. You are demanded it from them so you should do it yourself

         
      • What have you got to hide, Humberdink?

        Odd how you heroes of the revolution, supporters of openness and transparency, hide your faces and your finances. Don’t want people to know who is pulling your strings?

        Hypocrites, cowards and criminals. And how many of your halfwits will remain once the weed runs out and the weather gets colder?

        Sod off home, tiny fraction of 1% and let people get on with their lives without fear of catching something from the pestilential mess you have set up around St Paul’s (because the Stock Exchange was too scary).

         
        • Helen your comment above is Libel….

          “Hypocrites, cowards and criminals. And how many of your halfwits will remain once the weed runs out and the weather gets colder?”

          Can you prove such vilification?

           
          • Doubtful, but the constant references to what might be termed “dangerous drugs” on campus just invites the security forces to “sweep” the camp with a D.D. General Authorisation, It could be a search warrant in your case.

            I remember one hippy that my unit arrested in an Asian airport a couple of years ago because he had 3 kg of resin in his “heavy” shoes. The guy actually thought he would be fined but got 18 years imprisonment !!! Hippies cannot usurp the law & to have your GA actually debating drug use as if it were Mars bars use is not going to get you the support of 10% never mind 99%. Who there will now stand -up and explain this consistent need to be “spliffed -up” on campus????

             
            • Notice how the constant drug references only come from those with negative comments about the occupy movement.
              There was general consensus in the GA on day two of Occupy LSX that we should try and make the camp an alcohol and drug free zone.
              We are awake – not stoned.

               
            • I recall you put it to the vote, however there were insufficient votes in favour to declare a drug free campus. Perhaps this is one of the main reasons why verbatim minutes were removed ??

               
    5. Please provide one well researched idea, that can have a practical application that would gain majority support in this country.
      Please explain how we would implement this idea and what its benefits and pitfalls would be.

       
      • please do as Mr matthews asks. The government has been introducing this http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/community-work-for-job-seekers/ effectively slavery if you are unable to find work quickly enough- with the implication that if you don’t have work its because you don’t have skills- nothing to do with the economic climate and employment laws- whilst you guys have a camping party and wallow in your own press reports. You are not in any way representing the real worries of the poor right now. Its a shame

         
    6. This was discussed in the GA a couple of days ago and accounts will be published for everyone to see.

      Just a matter of time. The finance working group has a lot to do at the moment and they are only a small team so liaising with the web team to get it into a format accessible to everyone isn’t a major priority at the moment. This will happen though! Transparency is at the heart of the movement.

       
      • James, this is not good enough, why the delay? Are they trying to hide something? Can anyone have trust in what they eventually publish? Sorry, but most of us know this movement is a fraud, and we also know where the financial backing is coming from!

         
        • As James has stated transparency is at the heart of all that we do. The practical limitations of the set-up we have means that publishing everything immediately is impossible. It will be published though, there is no conspiracy here. If you would like to better understand how OccupyLSX works, come down and see for yourself.

           
          • Drivel. Just post it as it is. We’re not idiots, we will understand it. If you had nothing to hide, you wouldn’t need to mess around with it first.

            Don’t assume we’re as stupid as your followers.

            As for the “idea whose time has come”, if this idea were one of those, you wouldn’t need to camp outside St Paul’s to get attention. Your “idea” is so ill-conceived that your happy band of halfwits can’t even figure out what it is, let alone how to make the public accept it. Someone should have told you, poppet, smoking cannabis makes you think you’re clever – it actually makes you stupid.

             
            • More vilification and insults. Helen this does your argument no good.

               
      • Transparency is at the heart of the movement.

        Hi James, with the greatest of respect, if that was the case then uncensored minutes from all GA meetings would have been published on this website. What has happened is that minutes were published, then removed, then republished sometime later with whole sections missing. Also given that GAs are twice a day, there are very few minutes that have actually been published here. So where are they? I’ve asked that question many a time here and have been ignored, or worse told to mind my own business. Comments and whole articles disappear from this site. Based on all of this, it doesn’t bode well for getting a (complete) view on Occupy’s finances.

        You don’t need accounts at the moment or the services of an accountant. You just need to publish what I suggested above – at this stage, it will simply be a spreadsheet listing individual donations and expenses with scanned copies of receipts to back up all expenses, and ideally the same for donations. This is simple bookkeeping.
        To avoid any accusations of financial impropriety, you also need to publish the details of those who can access the organisation’s money and how that is controlled.

        When are you going to publish the information that I have suggested?

         
    7. Does anyone else think that the tone of this press release is a bit weird? It’s written like the National Enquirer or a gossip column or something. Most of the press releases from OLSX are kind of professional and evenhanded, and come across really well, and then occasionally they put out this kind of stuff, full of “intrigue” and innuendo (and also full of “sic” notations that make no sense. You only use “sic” when you’re transcribing something with a grammatical or spelling error, and you want to make it clear that this error was in the original).

      Also, as much as I support OLSX, why would they be so astonished that the City of London doesn’t really care what the tent city has to say? Surely anyone with half a functioning brain cell would know that this is not exactly news? Curious…

       
      • Agreed. When reading this it felt like i was reading a gossip column or something.

        Its comes across as somewhat slanderous and underhand in its writing.

        I am generally for the movement, but this article did come across to me a supporter of the movement as somewhat petulant.

        Sorry to say, but generally keep up the good work dudes/dudettes!!

         
        • Perhaps its something close to your heart though, i can understand letting some emotions/passions get involved!. Do not let your mission go to your heads though. You are trying to do a good thing for sure, but stay grounded.

          Much love

          – dan

           
      • I think it’s in keeping with the paranoid stupidity of the movement and their desperate attempt to find something to say that sounds political. You see, everyone is laughing at them, and that hurts their feelings and scares them, because they thought intimidating people would make them seem tough. Being laughed at puts them at the same level as David Blaine. London isn’t kind to loonies.

         
        • Paranoid stupidity? Intimidating people? Loonies? More defamation Helen…

          Intelligent debate please.

           
          • Helen is totally right on this point. The movement has been struggling to come -up with anything relevant to the U.K. situation. They have no support outside leftist groups “the usual suspects”- Captain Renault, Casablanca!

            Moreover it is becoming obvious that “staying put” is the main aim of “Occupy” !!! Obviously people down there have their own reasons for persisting with this farce but I doubt they have anything to do with the spirit of the “Occupy” movement. Perhaps they have become the “Ghosts of Occupy”, lingering forever in the environs of St. Paul’s ?

             
            • Insulting people with good intentions is not right.

               
    8. The negative comments are really quite amusing sometimes and generally fairly naive or ignorant. I’m feeling too old to camp out at St. Paul’s but the ideas, processes, organisation and almost ‘professionalism’ (don’t want to be rude!) of this fledgling group are quite extraordinary. Keep up this good work!

      There must be at least a few MP’s in the coalition with the honesty and integrity of John McDonnell who could come and speak for their constituents too. (I guess they’d have to be as maverick in their parties as John may be in his, but we need MP’s of all parties who are not ‘apparatchiks’ to speak out).

       
      • I completely agree, on the whole they should be very proud of themselves.

        The way you guys/gals have conducted yourselves has been exceptional. With integrity, with humility and with openness.

        Keep it up man!

         
      • Calling other people naive when you think camping outside a church is going to change the world is hilarious.

        Even if the underlying ideas were good (and they’re not – the whole argument boils down to “other people have more shiny things than me”), there’s no way anything is going to happen, because if we give in to bunches of threatening thugs in tents, every city in the country will fill up with camping halfwits every time the council tax goes up. You idiots have merely guaranteed that all protests will be treated more harshly because there is a risk they will become a camp. Well done! And the fact that you support them but chickened out of joining them just shows what losers they and their supporters are. I love the fact that they call themselves “Occupy the London Stock Exchange” when they didn’t even have the backbone to go there. Much easier to intimidate clergy.

         
    9. Keep it up the tide is turning

       
    10. Oh, it seems like they do not wish to disclose who is supporting them. So much for openess, and transparency! Most of us though, understand the reality!!

       
      • Billy give them time Rome wasn’t built in a day. Many people like me have gone down as individuals and given what they can afford. I understand individual donations have also come from City workers who would like to remain anonymous out of fear of loosing their jobs.
        As a Jim’s early comment states I think it would be unfair to name these individuals without their consent because of obvious repercussions, organisations are fair game.

         
    11. Its gone, its over. The English will never rock the boat enough to make a difference anytime soon.

      Being at the core and forever looking out, has built fear and the defence mechanism of sticking together, which has worked well for them past 1000 years.

      Nothing will change much.

      Now the French, thats another matter. The top richest have offered to pay more tax!

      To quote Napoleon, ” There are two ways to motivate man, Fear or Interest”

      The memory of the quilotine must still be fresh? lol

       
      • Ahaah, but supposing the real majority, are more in touch with supposed ‘reality’, not hard! Suppose the majority actually understand what’s happening in the world?? Are you saying, in your arrogance, that you know what is best for the real world? Please respond!

         
    12. I’ll repost this as I haven’t had a response.

      “Please provide one well researched idea, that can have a practical application that would gain majority support in this country.
      Please explain how we would implement this idea and what its benefits and pitfalls would be.”

      I’ll also add the following.

      You owe the above because you are living off public land without paying rent, you’re costing the public money through policing costs (both to police you and to police the EDL when they wanted to remove you), you are paying no tax to the public through your earnings (the ones doing this full time) and you are living off someone else (either the taxpayer or donators). You are therefore accountable to the public for what you do all day.

       
      • Seconded by the 99%. Police, Fire Service & Council budgets are being run down more quickly than expected. They will simply have no option but to go back to govt. to find additional grants. This money will of course come from the 99%.

        I pay U.K. tax, but I gain no apparent benefit from this “Occupy” thing. Why do I need to pay for policing, rubbish collection, etc??????

         
        • They don’t care what they cost the real 99%. This lot are no better than the rioters who preceded them (who were probably the same rabble – those tents came from somewhere).

           
        • I agree, Roger, it is us, the 99%, who have to pay for this indulgence

           
        • As far as I understand it Occupy LSX pay for their own rubbish to be taken away at 150 pounds a load. In fact, the City of London offered the woman that organises the camps recycling a job because Occupy LSX have actually greatly improved the City’s recycling quota.
          The police are there of their own accord, Perhaps they should leave Patermoster Sq and save their budget?

           
          • Be realistic Fred. No demo, more personnel from govt. departments doing what they should be doing. “Police there of own accord” dost thou jest ??

             
          • Unbelievable, you haven’t provided any ideas but merely said that you cost the public a little less than I suggested. The police are there when they are their to defend public safety and this includes arresting about 170 people to protect you from the EDL. You have only survived where you are because of police protection. Given this has happened I hope a lot of you will apologise to the police and take back the comments saying that the police are just a tool of the 1% and out to get you.

            So policing costs remain and you still pay no rent. You will also, I assume, use council facilities like pavements, hospitals etc if required. So I ask again…

            “Please provide one well researched idea, that can have a practical application that would gain majority support in this country.
            Please explain how we would implement this idea and what its benefits and pitfalls would be.”

             
            • Dear Dave Matthews, I’m afraid you will not get any coherent response to that one!
              You may however wish to drop by & claim a “Free Hug” as one poster at the site advertises.

               
            • Dave off the back of the head I can think of loads of good ideas but it would be wrong of me to speak as an individual for a consensus movement.

              So instead, I will refer you to the initial statement of Occupy LSX as agreed by consensus:

              http://occupyLSX.org/?page_id=575

               
            • Dave

              Not speaking on behalf of the movement, but from my own observations and feelings, I would say that this is not a matter for the intellect but for the heart.

              I would say that if there is a demand, it is a demand for a response from the heart, not the intellect.

              I would also say that I sense from various sources that this is being achieved in more and more people ~ so, if that is the aim, then it is proving successful.

              The fact that the camp in London is an annoyance to some is serving to convey that it cannot be conveniently ignored. The fact that its there demands a response. That is the point.

               
        • Roger do you think its right that FTSE 100 directors’ earnings rose by almost half last year,

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/28/ftse-100-directors-earnings-rose-by-almost-half

          whilst at the same time thousands lost their jobs?

          http://www.personneltoday.com/articles/2010/01/20/48935/redundancy-tracker-uk-job-losses-and-job-cuts.html

          All so that these corporations could earn more profit??

          Do you think its right we lent money to the banks to bail them out and on the back of this bankers gave themselves huge bonuses??

          Do you want your children to be saddled with an average debt of 60,000 pounds (Guardian 12 Aug 2011) for an education only to find they can’t get a job on graduation and may never be able to buy a home depute working their entire adult lives?

          Is it not fair that people should be paid properly for a days work and that pensioners should not have their pensions stolen?

          I have an MA, have been in business for 15 years and the only jobs going in my industry are low or no pay. All for the sake of profit.

          Is this any kind of life for any of us?

           
      • here’s an idea posted in response to Occupy LSX’s repines to the Corporation of London on Nov 11 by Peter:

        Peter on November 11, 2011 at 6:56 pm said:

        I would propose that no one within any organisation may earn more than ten times the pay of the lowliest.

        To anyone who disagrees and argues that big business would leave our shores I say, let them leave and let us build a new society for this new century. And since it will be a fairer, happier, healthier society others will follow our example.

         
    13. It seems rather sinister to me that you are asking people for information on what happened in a meeting to which you were not invited. Hoping they were talking about you? They probably weren’t. Your rabble are a police matter, of no interest to the rest of the city.

      You started out a curiosity and are now a joke, and a faintly annoying one at that. I doubt anyone is wasting their life in meetings about you. The only question to be answered about you is whether you have the brains to go home under your own steam or whether you will have to be removed.

       
      • faintly annoying enough to have you foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog. what is really sinister is the effort you put into hating. interesting from a psychoanalytical point of view but sad and lonely really.

         
        • Jeremiah,
          So true, especially the foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog, I can actually picture ‘her’ like that.
          ‘She’ is truly scary !

           
    14. I am gobsmacked by the hate and mistrust that characterises some of these posts. I’ve been to St Paul’s a number of times and have seen nothing sinister or suspect. In fact I’ve been inspired by the fact that people there are plainly living their values and striving to do things in a different, inclusive way. Direct democracy is hard and time-consuming, and it’s a fact of life that you’ll never please all of the people all of the time. Nor are there more than 24 hours in the day, and both the building of real consensus and the dissemination of information – even with technology – are enormously time-consuming. Occupy London is less than a calendar month old. It is living its principles. But it’s composed of human beings who are as less-than-perfect as you and I are. It follows that if you’re looking for things to criticise you’ll find them. It’s so desperately sad that so many angry people seem to be determined to focus on what they perceive has not been done rather than what has and on the anonymity of the online comment rather than face-to-face engagement.

      I’ve been a community activist for much of my adult life and it’s my experience that the world is divided into people who do, and people who complain about what is done. If you’re less than happy with some of the movement’s processes, why don’t you go down there and help to sort things out? Get involved? Do something positive? It’s easy and, frankly, both lazy and cowardly to sit on the sidelines and whinge.

      As for dreaming … well, God help the human race if we ever stop doing that. These words from Goethe have inspired me; I hope they resonate with those of you reading this …

      Whatever you can do, or dream you can do
      Begin it.
      Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
      Begin it now.

       
      • @LindseyD
        I think that what is unfolding is serving a purpose in bringing the most extreme attitudes, prejudices, hatred for fellow-man etc out to the surface. My understanding is that it is by design rather than error and that it will ALL serve a purpose in the overall scheme of things ~ so I am trustful in what is unfolding.

        I have faith in One who is working to bring a “just” world forth ~ its not merely a dream.

         
        • @ Linsday D
          Sorry for spelling your name wrong in my last post.

           
          • The hidden motives in people’s hearts are being exposed though what is unfolding. I believe this to be a positive thing in the grand scheme of things and will all serve its purpose for the individuals concerned in time, and then in turn for the world at large.

             
          • No worries! 🙂

             
      • Hi Lindsay D – I’d like to refer you to my comment of November 12, 2011 at 6:55 pm that was posted without any any accusations but was posted as a call for transparency within Occupy. This works on two levels:

        1. By doing this you have the upper hand and a huge amount of credibility when campaigning for transparency by others – leading by example.
        2. For a multitude of reasons, not everyone can get to St. Pauls regularly, if at all and therefore publishing everything on this website gives confidence to your supporters and donors from afar that the finances of Occupy are being appropriately managed. You also stop any allegations of wrongdoing at a stoke provided that you publish everything.

        Don’t get defensive; making publishing what I suggested a priority instead of organising tent lectures, film shows, and zombie bank runs. Assuming that records have been kept then this is a few hours work for one person.

         
        • Comment from James on Nov 12 at 7.55 above states Occupy LSX will publish accounts. I wonder if the Corporation of London will have the guts to do this also?

           
        • Hi Jim

          I said that I was gobsmacked by the hate and mistrust evident in ‘some’ of the posts in this thread. It’s interesting that you – and only you – chose to defend yours.

          I’m not defending anything, simply saying what I see. The Occupy movement doesn’t need me to defend it: it is what it is and that is plain to see, I believe. You may not agree with some of its tactics – indeed, I have issues with some of them too – but there is no doubt, in my mind, about their integrity. They have said they will publish accounts. So enough, already. They have achieved more in raising awareness and personalising the ethical vacuum at the heart of free market economics in less than a month, regardless of tactics, than would have been thought possible. Is that not something to celebrate?

           
    15. Curious how some people – both on here and especially on Twitter – seem to be investing an awful lot of their spare time in telling OccupyLSX that they are a waste of time and not worth paying attention to!

       
      • Quite ~ if its a waste of time, then why so much attention? The fact that its attracting so much persecution is interesting.

         
        • People are engaging because

          a.) they are interested

          or

          b.) at a time when finances are tough they are annoyed that you are free-loading whilst the rest of the world has to work to make a living.

          “Please provide one well researched idea, that can have a practical application that would gain majority support in this country.
          Please explain how we would implement this idea and what its benefits and pitfalls would be.”

           
          • “annoyed that you are free-loading”

            Quite an assumption in that.

             
            • I’ve explained this above. Occupy are living and doing business off public land tax and rent free. This is freeloading.

               
            • Wasn’t the planet given to mankind for free?

               
          • Dave, I think the term ‘freeloading’ is totally unfair. I myself work (often for free), pay my taxes and rent.

            I believe many of the ‘campers’ are still paying rent on their homes (if they’re lucky enough to have one,) pay taxes and work (often for a pittance.)

            Have a look at this link:
            http://www.resist.org.uk/global/occupy-wall-street/we-are-the-99/

            Did you see my link to Occupy LSX’s initial statement in regards to your demands for ‘one good idea’?

            Have a little patience and more ideas will follow. Please allow time for research you have demanded dear.

             
          • idea: abolish MPs and political parties
            benefits: no more corrupt MPs !

             
    16. They’re running scared! Keep up the good work Occupy LSX.

       
    17. @Vic on 12th Nov said: “Keep it up the tide is turning”

      With ref to this, read this:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/13/vince-cable-sympathise-occupy-london

       
    18. Occupy London score an internet success against City Of London Corporation. Search traffic increased by five!
      More here: http://wp.me/p1Znbh-f

       
      • @piman ~ Thank you for the link ~ very interesting.

         
    19. weareallone

      when I ask for a good, well researched practical idea that could be implemented you refered me to Occupy’s original statement, which didn’t meet these criteria and was written about a month a go. What have you been doing for all this time at public expense?

       
      • wearreallone

        I seem to be taking some flak for calling you freeloaders. Perhaps I have used the wrong word but I am trying to convey the point that Occupy are living off and doing business off public land and not paying for the privilege of doing so. Some may pay taxes elsewhere but they are not paying for the use of this land.

        desperate: “wasn’t the planet given to mankind by free?”
        Either yes by god or we evolved and yes still for free. However, we clearly need a system to allocate land to different uses and this land has been allocated for public use. You’ve taken it upon yourselves to occupy it for your own purposes with no regard or apologies to anyone else

         
        • Dave please take the time to look at the tumblr link I gave you.

          Do you really think sleeping on the frosted paving slabs is a privilege?

          Will you be wanting rent from the homeless too??

          Public land is for everyone.

          Have some sense.

           
          • I don’t think the homeless should be charged as they have no choice. They should, in fact, be helped, which they are to some extent. You, however, are occupying the land by choice, incurring a large cost to the public and there are no signs so far that you are giving anything back as you can’t provide even 1 practical idea that could change things for the better.

            I’ve looked at the link and I’m not sure what it adds to this debate

             
            • @Dave Mathews
              Abolish Private Central Banking, take away the ability of the criminal banking families to print money out of thin air and charge the people interest on it….. There you go, 1 thing that would fundamentally change things for the better. Incidentally also a thing you can take away, research and start the process of enlightening yourself with, so happy days all round – see you at St. Paul’s once you see how the world really works 🙂

               
            • dee
              dont be giving him ideas now, he is probably an MP and will make an announcement it was his idea !! 😉

               
      • Dave you know this question cannot be answered quickly. If you want a well researched answer you need to allow time for the research. Play nice now.

         
        • Sorry I should have posted the above comment below Dave’s comment at 7.15pm

          Please forgive my error nay sayers.

           
        • I like that line…….’play nice now’ says a lot about the mindset of a lot of the ‘anti occupy movement’

           
    20. Actually come to think of it I think Occupy LSX are on land belonging to St Pauls with their blessing.

       
      • only partially, if they were entirely on St Paul’s grounds and they were allowed to be there then I wouldn’t mind

         
    21. People – all those hatred comments from some few shouldnt be taken real serious imo. Its sounds more like trolls to me. The ones that have maybe valuable different opinions can express it without constantly insulting everyone of the movement.

      So keep up the great work. You Are the 99%, its just not everybody realised it yet.

      Love talent

       
    22. @Dave Mathews
      Abolish Private Central Banking, take away the ability of the criminal banking families to print money out of thin air and charge the people interest on it….. There you go, 1 thing that would fundamentally change things for the better. Incidentally also a thing you can take away, research and start the process of enlightening yourself with, so happy days all round – see you at St. Paul’s once you see how the world really works

       
    23.  
    24. Extract from the – Michael Jounal

      It’s time people knew the money trick

      Banks hold the power of life and death over the economy

      Colin Barclay-Smith

      Colin Barclay-Smith is an Australian journalist who started studying Douglas’s Social Credit proposals during the first years of the Depression. He was so convinced of the value of this doctrine that he founded, in 1932, a journal to diffuse it, the New Era, which had at one time over 30,000 subscribers. In 1934, Barclay-Smith accompanied Douglas in his tour of Australia and New Zealand. Barclay-Smith died on May 19, 1957 in Sydney, at the age of 64. A brilliant writer, Barclay-Smith wrote several booklets on various aspects of Social Credit. The last one, It’s time they knew, was published a few months before his death. This booklet was republished and updated several times under the title The Money Trick. (This book is available from our office, in English or in Polish, for $9, postage included.) Here are excerpts from this booklet:

      by Colin Barclay-Smith

      It’s time the people of Australia knew the alarming facts. Test your own knowledge of these facts by the following questions:

      Do you know that no bank lends money deposited with it?

      Do you know that when a bank lends money it CREATES it out of nothing?

      Do you know that bank loans are merely pen and ink entries in the credit columns of a bank’s ledger? They have no other existence.

      Do you know that practically all the money in the community comes into circulation as a debt to the banks?

      Do you know that money loaned by a Government bank is just as much a debt to the people as if it were loaned from a private bank?

      Do you know that “fixed deposits” are a plausible screen to hide the creation of credit?

      Did it ever occur to you that the banks enjoy this unique facility of creating credit and putting the nation progressively into debt-bondage because they create FINANCIAL credit against the REAL credit created by the people?

      Do you realize that every time a Government borrows money for a public work, the people are debited with the liability (in perpetuity), but are never credited with the value of the asset?

      Do you know that every repayment of a bank loan cancels the amount of the loan out of existence?

      Do you know that Treasury Notes are Government I.O.U.’s — national pawn tickets for pledging the assets of the country to the banks for the loan of OUR OWN financial credit?

      Do you know that banks purchase bank sites, build premises, and acquire assets at no real cost whatever to themselves — by the simple process of honoring their own checks?

      You may dismiss these affirmations as “incredible”, or “absurd”, but if you will read on, each one will be proved beyond all shadow of doubt.

      Most of us have grown up with only the vaguest notions of money. We are fairly certain that it is the Government’s right to print notes and mint coins. For the rest, our knowledge is distinctly foggy.

      Most people, for example, labor under the impression that the only money in the community is notes, silver, and copper. But this is a very, very small part of the community’s money.

      In fact, notes, silver, and copper — legal tender — is used for less than five per cent of the total purchases made. Over 95 per cent of all business is done by checks.

      This check currency is really bank-created money — bank credit — but it functions exactly the same as legal tender money. Banking authorities of world-wide repute state that banks can and do create credit up to nine or ten times their cash resources.

      Banks go to great pains to perpetuate the fiction that they are merely “the custodians of their customers’ deposits” — that they lend these deposits, and that their profit consists of the difference in the rate of interest which they pay to depositors, and the interest they receive from borrowers. Such an idea is quite wrong, and it is the popular acceptance of this major monetary fallacy which gives rise to most of the false notions upon the subject of money.

      The facts about money are as follows: —

      (1) Banks do not lend money deposited with them.

      (2) Every bank loan or overdraft is a creation of entirely new money (credit), and is a clear addition to the amount of money in the community.

      (3) No depositor’s money is used when a bank lends money.

      (4) Practically all the money in the community begins its life as an interest-bearing debt to the banks.

      The technique of a bank loan

      All that a bank does in lending anybody, say $1,000, is to open an account in the borrower’s name — if he hasn’t already got an account — and write Limit: $1,000, across the top of the ledger. The borrower is now free to operate and overdraw on this account to the limit indicated.

      When the account is drawn on the check, and in turn the check is lodged in another account at the same or another bank, a “deposit” is thus created, and the supply of money increased. Thus bank loans create “deposits”, which plainly are not the source of loan money but, rather, the other way around, they are the outcome of loans.

      Now for the authorities

      Now for the unassailable authorities on this matter of the creation of credit by the banks.

      Governor Eccles, a one-time head of the Federal Reserve Bank Board of the United States, said: “The banks can create and destroy money. Bank credit is money. It’s the money we do most of our business with, not with that currency which we usually think of as money.” (Given in evidence before a Congressional Committee)

      Mr. R.G. Hawtrey, previously Assistant Under-Secretary to the British Treasury, in his Trade Depression and the Way Out, says: “When a bank lends, it create money out of nothing.”

      In his book, The Art of Central Banking, Hawtrey also wrote: “When a bank lends, it creates credit. Against the advance which it enters amongst its assets, there is a deposit entered in its liabilities. But other lenders have not this mystical power of creating the means of payment out of nothing. What they lend must be money that they have acquired through their economic activities.”

      Lord Keynes, the economist and one-time Board Member of the Bank of England, states: “There can be no doubt that all deposits are created by the banks.”

      Professor Frederick Soddy, the eminent physicist of Oxford University, wrote: “Is it possible in these days of disbelief in physical miracles really to caricature institutions which pretend to lend money, and do not lend it but create it? And when it is repaid them, de-create it? And who have achieved the physically impossible miracle thereby, not only of getting something for nothing, but also of getting perennial interest from it?”

      The community’s life blood

      The business world cannot function without bank credit, and every person in the community is equally dependent upon it.

      Stop, or even restrict, bank overdrafts for one week, and there would be a nation-wide crisis. Continue the restriction for three months, and this nation would be plunged into a depression, with unemployment and bankruptcy for thousands.

      Such a crisis happened in the early thirties, as millions of the older generation remember with sorrow and bitterness. You may remember that during the Depression, there was no shortage of goods. The shops and stores were full. But credit had been restricted by the banks. The life blood did not flow freely, and industry died, and unemployment was staggering.

      Bank credit is the life blood of the community, and if the flow of blood is restricted, the patient’s life is jeopardized.

      How money begins

      Now let us look at this credit business a little more closely. How does it come about?

      There is an old economic tag that money originates in production, and is cancelled in consumption. Practically all the community’s money has its roots in production. Most money sees the light of day as a “producer credit”. In other words, it begins its life as a debt to a bank, and from the moment it is released as a book entry in a bank’s ledger, the credit created by the bank and loaned to a company or individual travels through the production system, much of it being used for consumption, and is finally cancelled when the debt is repaid to the bank by the borrower.

      That industry — both primary and secondary — cannot function on its own resources which is proven by the universal need it has of bank overdraft accommodation (i.e., bank loans).

       
    25. There was a time when bankers set one country against another as a threat against default.
      The City of London , that Citadel, requires the monarch to cross a red line, very symbolic dont you think. there was a time past when national debt was a monarch’s debt. Any guesses how the “City” was able to extract “concessions” over the past centuries.
      Now we have ….”to big to fail” , if the “Euro” collapses, the Union collapses.
      …God forbid we just cancel the debt. …tidy up and get on with it……the subterfuge must go one, and the “one world project-government” must stay on track.

      Many world leaders have announced the project so please do not think that this is a “conspiracy” theory. A little research will show the following Bush Snr., Clinton etc. propossing a one world system.

      As we move forward I see the only hope of harnessing the “power to creat credit” for good, if it is democractised to the individual. Just as each citizen has a right to vote he must also obtain the right to create credit for himself, his community, state, and nation. This powermust be used in the first instance for the obtaining of the necessary pre-requisites for civilized life. i.e. health, shelter, education, security.
      If a nation can feed itself, then it can meet all these requirments without injustice.

      Cheers

       
    26. Then you are either (a) ignorant (b) don’t understand anything (c) are 1 of the 99% (d) are selfish and greedy … we are all part of the 99%, except, if you don’t agree …

      I think that’s it? Did i miss anything?

      Admittedly, I’ll probably be attacked, told to pull my head out etc, but, I see no value in the movement .. there are no “demands” that have been made that I can even start get involved with …

      Sorry, I must be either 1 or more of the first statement.

       
      • if you don't agree with occupy
      • Thank you. Apology accepted.

         

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