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Open Letter from Occupy London Stock Exchange to St Paul’s Cathedral

 

To the Dean and Chapter of St. Paul’s Cathedral,

We are grateful to the Reverend Canon Dr Giles Fraser, Chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral, for reassuring us that our activities are not harming the Cathedral’s commercial concerns – that has never been our intention. Our intention was to highlight the iniquities of the global economic crisis, in a peaceful manner, especially as the Cathedral has been so hospitable.

We have endeavoured to clarify perceived health and safety issues and continue to place these as a priority for the health and safety of everyone, both inside and outside of this historic Cathedral.

Unfortunately, despite our requests of the Cathedral, they have not provided us with details and information as to how we are perceived to be threatening health and safety. We once again urge the Cathedral to bring to our attention, immediately, the particular details of the health and safety issues to address them. Our concern is if there are health and safety issues (which we in any event refute) by the Church failing to tell of them, they are exacerbating any perceived dangers.

Due to the urgency of the situation you have raised, we would appreciate your immediate response so that we can deal with these concerns.

Regards,

Occupy London Stock Exchange

 

132 Responses to “Open Letter from Occupy London Stock Exchange to St Paul’s Cathedral”

  1. Go and disturb the stock exchange or the bank of england or canary wharf – maybe news international or canary wharf ?

     
    • St Pauls is right next to Paternoster Square, the home of the London Stock Exchange. LSE got a court order to stop the occupation of their private property, so the occupation happened as close to it as possible instead – it’s right next to the gates to the LSE square. There’s a line of police blocking the way in.

       
    • 9nary 1harf is private Property – no chance of pitching up there. Will be removed without question

       
  2. Or we could all go and get a life,,,,,,,
    its all a bit like The Judean Peoples Liberation Front or is it The People’s Liberation Front of Judea ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

     
    • lol – They’re not buying their tents from you == sour grapes!

       
  3. Maybe if you did something other than just sitting around, people would take notice.

     
    • Any suggestions?

       
      • With occupation in the city, the 1% can easily ignore – they go home to big houses and families each night. Perhaps a more eloquent and provocative site for occupation would be near thier homes – occupy the places the 1% live – the greens near their homes. This will be noticed evenings and weekends, and by thier families. And there may even be an option to use tent pegs.

         
        • Er – who are these 1% ?
          By any quantifiable measure surely you must include yourselves? Or does the line cut off just above you? Very convenient. Hypocrisy comes very easy to the sanctimonious. In fact its the default vice.

           
          • In answer to your first question, the 1% refers to the wealthiest 1% of the population. With that understood, the rest of your post is clearly nonsense.

             
        • Thats a great idea, the 1% shmucks will take a lot more notice of their families and more likely to cave to threts of divorce from wives, husbands or partners.Cos it would cost their own money and not tax payers hard won pitance or some pension funds assets. Occupy the stockbroker belt, innit? embarress them at home, at work, when shopping or on holiday, whatever or wherever the 1% and their families go.Even abroad, get fellow occupy protesters to picket their villas and yachts in whatever country they visit. A blacklist of CEOs and or their families and even freinds, and pass it to every occupy group in the world. It sounds a bit harsh maybe, but they are destroying our human family every single day. Their financial terrorism must STOP!!

           
    • With respect, if you took the trouble to see what was being done in amongst the sitting around, you might realise that the protest is already following your advice. How else could it possibly be so coordinated across the entire globe? Check out the live streams for starters (http://occupystreams.org/).

       
      • its defo an I.T. revolution and the global responce is just ozmazing.as for the sitting around, its hard to coordinate events on a laptop while u are standing up, be they global or otherwise.The camps are providing a place in the real world to focus peoples attention to the protests.but its on line coverage is just great and makes me feel im part of the world again, truly part of a world changer.

         
  4. So they’ve closed the Cathedral because of ‘health and safety’ reasons, but they won’t tell you what they are??? Sigh. It’s obvious that St Paul’s is coming under pressure form its bent corporate sponsors who are desperate for the tabloids to put you lot in a bad light. DON’T GIVE IN!!!! Some of us can see through past the spin….

     
    • Well said! I suspect the cathedral is being used… Or on some big financial promise… Or being lied to and frightened…. Stay with it olsx

       
      • Here here, This was an ideal opportunity for the ‘Church’,as an institution, to ally itself with the poor, disadvantaged etc with a positive contribution to the peoples movement for fairness and justice.
        By allowing themselves (despite initial show of goodwill, which was the honest response) to be pressured by their corporate overlords their iniquity is exposed. Betrayers and hypocrites. Last nail in coffin for christianity. They’ve chosen the wrong side. And yes, I enjoy Christmas-free December, don’t waste trees by sending facetious cards, and enjoy assuring my friends and family that I love them at any and all times of the year. Without the ridiculous pressures imposed by a TV, I am empowered to use my time creatively and productively, in a sustainable framework. There are many alternatives, just take off the State enforced blinkers, wake up and join the rEvolution!

         
        • Some of us Christians DO believe the Church should be supporting the protesters for what they are trying to do for the majority against the City who seem to be getting society to eat out of their hands whatever the cost.

           
    • It seems obvious that those responsible for the cathedral are unable or unwilling to open up this dialogue with occupylsx. It is sadly their loss as they could benefit greatly by showing accountability and transparency in these matters. Unless of course their concerns are a deceiful ploy to push away then occupy movent without

       
      • Cont… Owning prejudice.

         
      • We’ve always been keen to engage in a constructive manner and we look forward to the management of St Paul’s opening communications with us very soon.

         
        • I am in agreement with your protest. I also want capitalism to end. But I disagree very strongly that you have caused St Paul’s to close. Why don’t you pitch yourselves outside a bank? Why should the church suffer because of the banks? I think the location of your protest needs to be moved, and now. I don’t know of anyone who agrees with you closing down a church of our English national heritage.

           
          • The point is they cannot pitch anywhere else! No close to the Stock Exchange anyway. This is a space that is “public” so therefore not illegal to “occupy”.

            How hard is it for people saying “go somewhere else” to see, that there is no many other effective places they could go!

             
          • OLSX have not closed the church. The church has decided to close, citing as yet undeclared H&S issues as the cause. Unfortunately this will always be a case of perception vs reality, with the potential for perception and reality to shift about a bit depending on your point of view.

            It was very interesting to hear a bell-ringer from St Pauls point out to the protesters last night that the church had effectively closed itself to the general public several years ago when it introduced the entrance fee.

             
        • Apologies for barging in on a completely unrelated comment, but I’m trying to centralise the contact details of who runs what (as per https://occupywiki.co.uk/London/Who ) – could you please provide me with said details or enter them in the appropriate area on that page?

          Many thanks,
          Sam T

           
    • Its so they can aquire an eviction on health and safety grounds.they probably got 1%s on the board of trustees or somesuch. The top of the church is as greedy as LSX and wall st, morally tho 100 times worse. As some1 i know is fond of saying “humankind will only be truely free, when we strangle the last king with the entrails of the last preist”. Too violent? on the lowest levels theyre great, bishops dress in silk and ermine that was the mark of a king. this is how they see themselves. bow and kiss my ring? they can kiss my ring if they like, it aint golden tho lol.

       
  5. I am reminded that Martin Luther began the Reformation as a humble pastor caring for peasants, but later as head of a new church and living in princely splendor, Luther worked to stifle the peasant revolts and to strengthen the German Princes’ feudal noose around the neck of the people.

    “It was against my principles, but I find that principles have no real force except when one is well fed” – Mark Twain (a.k.a. Samuel Clemens), The Dairies of Adam and Eve

     
    • Sorry, but Martin Luther didn’t ‘begin’ the Reformation and was an academic intellectual rather than a humble pastor. The 39 Articles were published as a subject for discussion among his peers, and he was horrified when they were interpreted by various widely differing groups with widely differing agendas as a manifesto for change. He never ‘headed’ an alternative church.

       
  6. Keep up the good work… health and safety concerns… blatant ruse to get the camp moved… will be interesting to hear what reasons they dream up.

    If you are still there you should do an alternative Remembrance Day ceremony to remind the bankers what a mess they have landed us in… its a very significant date aswell 11-11-11… especially if you do something at 11:11:11am… just an idea.

     
    • I DON’T think this is a good idea. The protest is making a point, a very valid point, in a way that has earned it respect. Please continue this.

      Please respect events as important and significant as Remembrance Day. I am sure you would, as I saw signs around the camp asking people to be quite even during normal church services.

       
      • However, since ww2 many have lost their lives at so called wars, wasrs that were about securing oil or controlling opium… But agree that it’s disrespectful and this movements is not about disrespect

         
        • Err, all I would say is … isn’t it lovely that you’ve the TIME to protest about how bad things are. How’s Mummy & Daddy’s double-barrelled Trust Fund doing by the way, c/o the capitalist system? Wake up dreamers! Go and do a day’s work! WHAT exactly do you expect to replace capitalism? There is no such thing as fairness for all whilst the the most competitive and violent species – humans – occupy the planet!

           
    • Sorry iamandy, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. Whilst it is worth noting that the combatant governments in all global wars have been funded by the same individuals, who have profited immensely out of the misery, it is hugely important that the Occupy movement remains, and is seen to remain respectful of its fellow citizens. Nothing would delight the detractors more than an opportunity to brand the movement as unpatriotic and selfish, which I’m afraid is precisely how the media would spin it.

       
    • wot like the 11.11.11.11.11.11 movement? auspiscious is it, use the power of the 1s to fight the 1%. Cool!!

       
  7. if the bosses salary was linked to average earnings x10 (its 29 x at present)
    we all would bennefit and 2900 wont die of cold this winter
    fair proffits not 2 tier society have’s havenots
    thanks bankers
    thanks rich bosses

     
    • A point worth making, Geoff, but as I read it things are much worse than a 29:1 exec:average salary ratio.

      http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/dec2009/ftse-d17.shtml – Suggest that in the UK the ratio is 81:1 in 2009.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8546801/Chief-executive-pay-vs-average-worker-pay-in-graphs.html?image=1 – Suggests 145:1 in 2009

      http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/Appointments/article438744.ece – Suggests 115:1 in 2010

      29:1 sounds peachy by comparison! 10:1 would be ace.

       
      • Will somebody make clear to me what the alternative to capitalism is? Are you asking for bigger government? Is that the idea?

         
        • It’s not about ending Capitalism, it’s about balancing the system. Capitalism is good, the idea someone can make a widget, and work upto being a huge company, where the system broke is where that person gets rewarded for given workers a wage just low enough to live on, but not enough to get ahead (thanks Mr Ford).

          It’s about making economies not the play things for big banks (ie Glass Stegall/Gold Standard system) and making sure wealth is distributed fairly (why is it only in the last 10 or so years we have had billionairs, it’s not due to inflation)

           
        • More a case of supporting every life on the planet through a responsible manor as opposed to just supporting a small percentage of people. Example if every footballer clubbed together there would be more than enough to clear the national debt and more.

          The means to exist without oil has been around for over a hundred years but never done as if you keep people addicted to oil then those that control it will always be the ones well off. There are many issues need changing these are but a few, it is the social mentality that overall needs to change ( not to work for profit but the better good )

           
          • Most of the comments here are delusional, but this one is the best “Example if every footballer clubbed together there would be more than enough to clear the national debt and more. ”
            Er..ok. National debt as published by the government is 76.5% of GDP or £1.72Tn.
            Taking premiership footballers, there are 20 clubs and let’s be generous and assume 30 players per club. Thats £1.72Tn / (20*30) = £2.866Bn each. Now Rooney & Tevez are well paid but even they would struggle to pay that bill…..

             
          • if we sold a few % of the crown jewels we could clear the debt or if we sold 10 or 20 of royal homes we could. i say the crown but they belong to us all realy. there are lots of ways to clear it,they dont want us to pay it off tho cos it keeps us all in debt and poor. Wot do we need a queen or king for anyway, arent we supposed to be a democracy? thats because old money is at the head of the 1%. All the political non action over the crisis is about is so super computer run hi speed looting of the markets makes more profit in volitile markets. About 100 million per day per company in all markets is stolen from our ecconomies. if the government had taxed each trade we could pay off the debt. Its not ability to get it under control, its the will. And we have a spineless and totally corrupt government, that wasnt even ellected. And dont get me started on whitehall, arrggh and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 .ahhh.

             
        • No doubt some sort of Nirvana type liberalism preached throughout our education system!

           
        • no, a fairer one. and we dont have capitalism now, that would imply fair and equal compatition. 5 or 10 large coperations fixing global prices is NOT a capitalist system.sure u aint thinking of dictatorship?

           
          • Mike – it’s just delusional stuff. Your protest needs to be grounded in reality and ask some serious questions such as “how did the regulatory regime allow banks to gorge on high-yield sovereign debt” most of the stuff here is little better than sub-O level economics and very ill-informed schoolboy debating.
            Do you seriously propose that selling a few % of the crown jewels or a few royal homes will raise £1.72 trillion. It wont! The fact is that the country has run up huge debt through massive public spending.
            “All the political non action over the crisis is about is so super computer run hi speed looting of the markets makes more profit in volitile markets. ”
            No it’s a lack of political will to face the fact that taxes have to raise, government spending has to fall (i.e. cuts!) and living standards have to fall. High frequency trading has nothing to do with it.
            “About 100 million per day per company in all markets is stolen from our ecconomies. ”
            In what sense? How?
            “if the government had taxed each trade we could pay off the debt.”
            Er no. The Tobin tax will raise a very round sum precisely zero as all the trade booking moves to Switzerland, Hong Kong and New York where the tax is not levied.
            “And we have a spineless and totally corrupt government, that wasnt even ellected.”
            Spineless yes, but in what way corrupt – to make that allegation beyond schoolboy debating points please point to where? Arguably the Lib Dem/Con coalition has the largest share of the vote ever.

             
  8. Please advise the Dean of St Paul’s to read “The largest heist in history”: http://gregpytel.blogspot.com/2009/04/largest-heist-in-history.html This was evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee. You all guys read it too and will realise that your cause is just and, in fact, the financial system degenerated to pure (illegal) thieving even under the current law. So it is enough to demand the equality under the law: get bankers and financiers properly prosecuted.

     
    • Yes, I read this some time ago, I thoroughly recommend all read it.

       
  9. It might be legal but that doesn’t stop you all looking like a bunch of tools. Pack up, go home, and stop bothering people who are not part of this. If you want to protest fine, but you are being arrogant, and selfish.

     
    • If you are not part of this what are your doing there? Bothering other people:-) You are the one who believes this area belongs to you:-(

       
      • What an idiot you obvioously are Bruce, so what, st pauls has some tents outside, if anyone should have empathy it should be the church and its worshipers. they are the great supposidly tolerant forgiving christians after all. this only points to the church being leaned on by the government to take action so that the protesters look unreasonable to the public through the lovely media we have

         
      • Err, that might be because we pay taxes, to fund public services and places for losers like you to occupy! Go and do a day’s work!

         
    • Yeah, Bruce. I agree with teh point above. It is you who think you own this space, to say to these people ‘sod off, you’re bothering me’. What makes you think you have the right to tell protesters not to protest where they choose? You yourself are being arrogant and selfish. The irony, though, seems to be lost on you.

       
    • self·ish/ˈselfiSH/
      Adjective:
      (of a person, action, or motive) Lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure.

      OR

      humanitarian [hjuːˌmænɪˈtɛərɪən]
      adj
      1. having the interests of mankind at heart

      Give it some thought, Bruce. This is nothing to do with individualism, but everything to do with wanting to create a fairer society for everyone.

       
      • Poor Bruce. I’m afraid there is no arguing with the self-righteous. You are the one who has to be tolerant, not them, because they – as they have pointed out – are the good guys – and you have absolutely no right to complain about them helping humanity. Gawd help us..

         
      • ‘She lived for others; you could tell the others by their hunted look.’ – C. S. Lewis

         
    • I agree with Bruce. This is an inappropriate location for such a protest. The Church (and to be honest, the LSX) did not cause this mess. Bankers and the policy makers are. The protest would be much better located outside a bank (Canary Wharf’s Canada Square perhaps) or outside the houses of parliament. As Canary Wharf is private land I suppose the later is the only option…

       
  10. This is another excellent piece from the same guy: proves that rating agencies are a wealth transfer mechanism from taxpayers to the rich. This shows how ordinary people are screwed big time. Pure thieving.

    http://gregpytel.blogspot.com/2011/08/credit-ratings-wealth-transfer.html

     
  11. This statement – like most issued so far by OLSX – has a distinctly passive-aggressive tone, I think.

     
    • No, it does not. It is polite but assertive.

       
      • ‘No, it does not. It is polite but assertive.’

        Assertive of what?

         
        • That if there are health and safety concern for the Church, they should point them out so something can be done about them.

          Wasn’t that obvious?

           
          • I think the most obvious characteristic of this posting is the strained attempt at some kind of formal English. The illiterate shall inherit the earth.

             
          • ‘That if there are health and safety concern for the Church, they should point them out so something can be done about them.’

            That’s really a request, not an assertion.

             
          • It’s also pretty obvious what the concerns are. A crowd of temporary structures and people restricting entrance and exit from one of the most popular places of worship and major tourist destinations in London. It’s also intimidating for visitors. Don’t think the church needs to spell those out for anyone.

             
    • I agree, but so what? The letter seems to be simply playing the game according to the rule. It’s saying, you say there are health and saftery concerns, so we say show us and we’ll sort it. If you don’t show us, you are the one’s that are undermining the health and safety of others, not us.

      The letter is damn smart. If you have to play the game, play it intelligently. That’s what this letter is doing, I believe.

       
  12. How can you “Refute” a health and safety issue that you are unaware of?

     
    • I think because they have already been given a clean bill of health by the H&S inspectorate.

       
      • And the fact that the day before St Pauls closed, the camp was reorganised to meet all the health & safety requests made of it by the relevant authorities (fire department etc). OccupyLSX checked with those same authorities following St Paul’s open letter and they confirmed that they had no further concerns.

         
        • I think its lovely the great unwashed have a place to gather!

           
  13. How much land does the Church of England own?
    A bit out of date but I would guess that they have expanded rather than contracted their portfolio:
    ” It [CofE] has also begun to capitalise on the need for parking space in the capital, netting £19m last year from selling 99-year leases on garage spaces.”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/28/religion.anglicanism

     
    • St Paul’s is autonomous from the C of E by the way.

       
  14. You are all just wasting your time. The vast majority of people just aren’t interested in you or your beliefs. You will change nothing.
    Go home.

     
    • You’re right! It will be the financial apocalypse that will sort us out all:

      http://gregpytel.blogspot.com/2011/10/financial-apocalypse-now.html

       
    • yes lets all roll over and take it right up the arse like good slaves.
      I mean really.. waste of time.. reading your sentence was a waste of time.. people only don’t listen because they have been conditioned to be selfish and only converse about the latest reality nonsense, if this movement even makes one person wake up, its a success, in 100 years people will laugh at what fucking idiots we were NOW

       
      • “…people only don’t listen because they have been conditioned to be selfish and only converse about the latest reality nonsense…”

        Unlike you, I take it, because you’re possessed of some special insight into things, a unique capacity which marks you out as distinct from the common mass of humanity. Only YOU see things the way they really are; only YOU can discern truth from falsehood.

        This seems a common sentiment amongst participants in, and supporters of, OLSX.

         
        • ‘…Only YOU see things the way they really are; only YOU can discern truth from falsehood…’

          Fidel, you’re directing your attention on the wrong minority. Yes, a few do in fact see how the majority of us have been ‘conditioned’ by another small (minority) group i.e. governments/bankers…so, do YOU think things are just fine and and the ‘system’ works for ALL?

           
          • i expect he witters about his pay cut, the price of housing etc etc in the pub but does NOTHING in the way of trying to find solutions or considering exactly how the system is taking the piss out of him. No, he just knocks those trying to improve his lot. That is selfish.

             
          • So, you’re essentially admitting that you are special, then…

            There’s no system. There’s just vaguely-organised chaos.

            Oh, and it’s ‘Fidei’, not ‘Fidel’, (unless you were being ironic, in which case it was funny). That’s ‘Fidei’ as in ‘Promotor Fidei’, a.k.a ‘Advocatus Diaboli’.

            To anon: I lost my job as a university lecturer in 2005. I taught myself how to write code, and set up my own software company a few years later. I now employ two other people, and am hoping to expand the business even further in the near future.

            I have a degree in philosophy, an MA in philosophy, a Bachelor of Music degree and a PhD. I don’t drink (much). I tend not to complain about things, unless it’s bad food at restaurants. Nothing really annoys me, though I do find people who take themselves too seriously, or have a ‘Manichaean’ perspective on things, delightfully entertaining in a ‘piss-takey’ kind of way. I bought the first issue of Warrior magazine featuring ‘V for Vendetta’ back in 1982. I still have it, somewhere…

             
    • I believe you might be mistaken friend

       
    • Time wasting or not, why should you care on that basis? It’s their time they are wasting. Based on you own premise if they’re are going to change nothing why are you here making that comment? Do you think they they will pack up and leave because of it?

      Change never starts from nothing, nobody taking action. The olsx have started something that has potential. How many people said, like you, that change could not be achieved in places like Egypt and Libya? Change has occurred there, there is no reason why change cannot happen here, no matter how trivial you consider the source. Change starts from people having the courage to speak out.

      Olsx and the linked global movement – carry on the good work. The world needs to change and soon for all our sakes.

       
      • ‘How many people said, like you, that change could not be achieved in places like Egypt and Libya?’

        So, do you see Cameron or Clegg stretched out on the floor of a freezer any time soon? Maybe that’s too harsh?

         
        • You’re definitely on the wrong side of the Libya issue, try and pay attention to whats going on beyond the previous news cycle.

          INTERESTING FACTS ABOUT LIBYA

          Did you know this about Libya?

          Some other facts (that mainstream media will never disclose) about “Gaddafi and Libya:

          – Loans to Libyan citizens are given with NO interest.

          – Students would get paid the average salary for the profession they are
          studying for.

          – If you are unable to get employment the state would pay the full salary as if you were employed until you find employment.

          – When you get married the couple gets an apartment or house for free from
          the Government.

          – You could go to college anywhere in the world. The state pays 2,500 euros
          plus accommodation and car allowance.

          – The cars are sold at factory cost.

          – Libya does not owe money, (not a cent) to anyone. No creditors.
          Free education and health care for all citizens.

          – 25% of the population with a university degree.
          -Libya has the highest literacy rate of any country in North Africa (82% of the population can read and write).

          – No beggers on the streets and nobody is homeless (until the recent
          bombing).

          – Bread costs only $0.15 per loaf.

          Gaddafi was venal and corrupt for sure. But the only liberty Nato has brought to Libya is the liberty of western companies to loot the county’s natural resources and assimilate the society into the debt based neo-liberal banking system we all know and love.

          And Egypt? Don’t kid yourself, the US funded and trained army was in control before that “revolution” and they still control the country now.

          Be very careful that like in Tahrir you people in the square don’t get used as pawns in someone else’s game..

           
          • Leo, this is very interesting. At the risk of sounding lazy, what was your source for the info?

             
          • I cannot disagree about what you have said; my knowledge is somewhat limited in regard to Libya so I guess we can only agree on your statement that “Gaddafi was venal and corrupt for sure”. If the system was so great there, why did a revolution manage to succeed? It sounds idyllic from what you describe.

            We must be the educators for each other. The mainstream media is manipulated to filter what we are allowed to be told and the tone and direction that it wishes to point us. Surely it is only through open discussion and debate like this that we can question and challenge the system that “they” are trying to put in place throughout the world.

            Can I ask then if you are for or against the actions being taken by all of the Occupy movements? Or do you believe that a single individual has the right to decide the fate of an entire nation or the world?

             
        • I don’t think I mentioned anything other than change. Change, if it needs to happen, as I and a few others believe it does, will by whatever means possible. I hope that by sufficient people speaking out and democratically choosing to make that change happen, it will inevitably happen.

          I suppose if Cameron or Clegg decided to become despotic dictators they would potentially end up in the location you suggest. As far as I’m aware that is not part of their manifesto. Not in this term at least.

          Typically, you have attempted to trivialise and talk of change by making a ludicrously extreme comment. We, even you my friend, have the right to speak out against our system of injustice. If our heads were on the block for doing so, then I guess it could be argued that our system can be no better than those deposed in the locations talked about.

           
          • By invoking the Arab Spring you inevitably invite speculation as to the future direction of the Occupy movement, and related ventures. You’re suggesting at least a broad equivalence, at the level of rationale, or underlying motivation. And of course we might look at events in Greece as a ready template for future developments… or the riots in August… or the student protests last year. I would suggest that, hyperbole aside, we cannot wholly dismiss any thinkable outcome any more (no more, in fact, than we should expect political leaders to adhere to their manifesto promises).

             
    • I’m interested, and supportive. II say this because don’t want you to speak for me, thanks. Show me concretely that “most” people have no interest. Your opinion is your own, and yet you think you can speak for others. Get evidence next time…

       
      • Now let me think about this…..
        Population of UK: 62,435,709
        Campers in London: 600
        Yes, I would say that is close to most.

         
    • You sound like you are trying to convince yourself Robert. Worried that they might actually change something…? If so, why? If not, why bother wasting your time telling people they are wasting their time?

       
    • keep it up 99% me and some friends travelling to london this saturday and will be camping there also.

       
    • Well done Robert – their double-barrelled Mummies and Daddies will be worried! Just too much time on their hands; no idea of the real world and what a good day’s work is. Look at what our education system has created…

       
  15. Would it be possible to compromise – to offer to reduce the size of the camp to one which enables the Cathedral to open and yet maintains a presence close to the LSE? Seems a good Anglican solution and might win friends. Why does the camp have to be so large? Size isn’t everything. Unless your a banker thinking of your bonus, of course.

     
    • From all reports (including a bride!) …there are no access problems at all! Even with the current camp as is. The only access problem I see here is that of the trustees, clergy and laity of St Paul’s to the teachings of their professed Lord.

       
    • No, I say, in the words of the late, great Kenny Everett: round ’em up, put ’em in a field and bomb the b*****ds!

       
  16. The last time I checked finsbury sq, is in ec2, not ec1. Then again the majority of you, have the brains of a rocking horse.
    Yours
    Bob mugabe

     
    • Last time i checked the details you’re refering to are on a different article! How ironic of you to comment on the brain capacity of the protesters while showing your own limited ability!…

       
    • … because it take a special kind of intellect to pick the name of a dictator to use on a public page involving the discussion of how to improve a capitalist democracy… Way to engage!

       
  17. The Greek Orthodox church – Greece’s second largest landowner after the government – has come under fire for not paying enough in taxes on its assets.

    One group to join the protests in Athens against austerity measures is Make the Church Pay. Its members are fed-up with the inadequacy of the church administration to support their country in its hour of need. A similar Facebook group – Tax the Church – has 100,000 supporters.

    “They simply don’t pay. They are so rich, and yet their contribution is minimal,” says Theodora, one of the protesters.

    The scale of the Greek Orthodox Church’s assets shed light on this resentment. The exact value of the Church of Greece, including land, property, artifacts, commercial revenue and shares in government companies, is unknown but experts estimate the 500-plus monasteries, 7,945 parishes, 130,000 hectares of land and 1.5pc stake in the Bank of Greece is worth €7bn to €15bn.

    What is the exact value of Church of England?

     
  18. Have any of you been in contact, with your rich capitalist parents, since demo started ? Isn’t Starbucks, very expensive, but hugely enjoyable

     
    • You seem comma to have a slight comma problem with how to comma punctuate sentences.

      Sorry, that was a cheap shot. But then so was the point you thought you were trying to make.

       
      • *applause*

        If you have money to buy Starbucks, you shouldn’t protest, you should get a life. If you have a job you shouldn’t protest, you should go to work. If you don’t have a job, you shouldn’t protest, you should get a job. Then, when you have a job, you can buy Starbucks, but not protest.

        Sigh…

         
      • That’s the state of our education system that pumps out this socialist idealism …

         
  19. It’s really concerning seeing the ‘mission creep’ as expressed in these comments and statements.

    What started as a clearly defined protest is now a blurred set of views, and if you read through the comments and your official words, the protestors now seem to believe that you’re the saviour of the country not only from the banks, but the church and ourselves as well. This kind of growing ‘God complex’ (no pun intended) substantially weakens the credibility of your argument, and the lack of humility to others and the arrogance that you must be right on everything makes it seem Occupy is increasingly not fit for purpose on representing anything.

    This isn’t the place to rehearse arguments about whether the CofE is a wealthy organisation that should do more, or a wellspring of hope that is struggling to survive, but some of the comments certainly suggest you have a degree of religious intolerance within your ranks to deal with.

    (Ps could people stop posting links to the board and CofE finances. First time interesting, second time accidental, fifth time implies you’re not really reading the discussion but just have a bee in your bonnet about the church.)

     
    • Admirable eloquence.

       
    • “This isn’t the place”
      Well seeing as its a comments thread concerning the relationship between a protest movement complaining about the way the rich benefit at the expense of the poor.. And the Church of England’s main franchise on Earth.
      Yes it is! Mind you where it should be is out in the media.
      Question everything. Trust but verify.

       
  20. Your protest has no effect no anything, except coffee shops and tourist-related businesses in the area. It is utterly pointless.
    Why don’t you do something constructive instead, like starting a political party. Or perhaps even more radical, and I’m quoting a certain American band: “Why don’t you get a job?”.

     
    • This may well be the start of a political party – who can tell at this point? As for “get a job”, it is an oldie but a goodie, peddled by those who get all their information second or third hand. Why don’t you take some time to find out about those who are dividing their time between work and protest – it might surprise you how many there are.

       
    • They haven’t started a party because they don’t want to be a part of “the system” (ie the messy business of democracy, requiring compromise and negotiation and a willingness to respect opinions other than their own)

       
    • Love it Alex!

       
  21. Meanwhile back to the original letter, we were there yesterday and witnessed a beautiful wedding taking place in the cathedral, so business as usual within. Also to note that the protesters stopped the speeches outside while the service was taking place. Thank you.

    All power to the right for peaceful protest, even if for some observers there is difficulty in understanding the reason behind it.

     
  22. Inconsistencies in the rationale for CATHEDRAL CLOSURE

    A Cathedral spokesman has announced that the Cathedral needs £20,000 a day to run, of which £16,000 comes from visitors. At £17.50 charged per visitor this equates to 914 visitors per day. This can be safely rounded down to 900 allowing for e.g. restaurant and other purchases and donations.

    On a roughly ten hour a day access time this equates to less than two visitors per minute. When one of us came into the Cathedral to donate on Friday morning (21st) they found a queue some metres long and a slight air of frustration among visitors at the processing rate. (Those among us with skills in critical path analysis and management consultancy would freely and happily offer it to the Cathedral to help them to optimise their input rate.)

    The Cathedral said that by closure it is loosing £16,000 a day. More transparent disclosure of their daily takings in the week before and after 15th October might make their rationale for entirely cutting off their visitors’ income less implausible.

    The allegations about fire risks and hygiene contradict the specific judgements of the fire authorities and relevant health inspector, and the internal report on which the Cathedral judgement was made has not been disclosed, according to an Anglican minister who addressed us. We wonder by what special intuition the Cathedral presumes to contradict the opinion of professional experts. The outside visitors have repeatedly adjusted their encampment to comply with professional advice or requirements.

    There was a potential difficulty with the growth rate of tents threatening to move round in front of the Cathedral but this has now been addressed by establishing an overflow encampment at Finsbury Square.

    One of the Cathedral employees supportively addressed a large general meeting of the group and emphasised that many of those inside the Cathedral supported us and a Christian movement, Christian Uncut Ekklesia, has arisen in our support.

    We note that the Dean is due to bless the Lord Mayor of London on the steps of St Paul’s at the Lord Mayor’s show on November the 12th. In view of the City’s weak international record on tax avoidance and evasion we feel he needs all the blessings he can get. However one wonders whether there is an element of unconscious self-deception in the rationale for closure so far provided.

    We strongly encourage as many visitors as possible to come to the Cathedral and while you are there we hope you will visit the encampment and talk to us as well.

     
  23. St Pauls ticket is at 14.50. Since you are camping there for a week you should know…I know it because I visited it not long ago

    I think you shouldn´t assume you can give advice about the efficiency if you don´t know what issues the staff have to address during the day.

    I support the basis of what you are protesting against but I am reading this know-it-all attitude and I guess you are not thinking about the hundreds of visitors that have been planing to visit the building and now they can´t do it because of the closure, do you thing they will support you?? Banks don´t think about the 99% but are you thinking about the cathedral staff, the workers on the bussiness around – and I mean Sainsburys, pubs, shops…-, the tourists? It looks like you think you own the truth, isn´t it what that 1% thinks as well??

     
  24. The church chose to close. A church would never close if they were in a world that gave the ability for us all to live without fear of retaliation by authorities because of excessive health and safety checklists. This is part of what has caused children to be unable to play freely so they can learn how to look after their own safety, with their parent’s guidance, and also allowing adults to be able to think for themselves, so they can be in a position to teach their children, which is slowly become progressively difficult.

    It is showing that the church needs support by the movement. Whether it is truly for health and safety reasons, or for any other reason, the movement is showing them this support by querying their decision, which at present they cannot or will not answer.

    As yet there is no evidence or substantial reasons for them to close. It is showing that a higher source may have instructed it, and I don’t mean God’s instruction, although, some politicians think they are God.

    I am really interested to see if they do answer and produce evidence. But I hope they will return to support it, because some of us need the movement; the people that are invisible to the world that have no real voice. I post this to start to making us visible.

     
  25. All these statements seem to be very carefully worded. eg “not harming the Cathedral’s commercial concerns”

    It’s quite simple. The camp is *in the way*.

    The cathedral needs to be able to evacuate it’s entire capacity quickly in an emergency ~3500 people. The size of the camp and the people visiting clearly presents a risk of that being difficult.

    Either occupy London or the cathedral needs to get their act together and find a Tardis.

     
  26. The revolution has been postponed due to health and safety risks.

    I’m amazed to hear St. Paul’s has closed it’s doors due to health and safety risks caused by the camp outside.

    In a time when the Church in this country should be at the forefront of such movement they close the door on them and are more concerned that the next bishop to be appointed might by female or gay.

    In the late 1970s and 1980s the Lutheran Church in, what was, the German Democratic Republic opened there doors to eco- and environmental groups, punks, peace movement and homosexuals. Starting in summer 1989 hundreds if not thousands of people made there way to the churches on a Monday evening for peace prayers followed by a silent candlelight demonstration. Most of those people had no previous relations with the church, yet, the church welcomed all regardless. The Lutheran Church was at the forefront of this movement which not only changed a small country but the world. There was no question of health and safety even health and safety was at risk every Monday evening not just for the church buildings but also for the people attending. What would have happened if the Lutheran Church in the small country GDR would have closed the doors? We can only imagine.

    How less dangerous is the situation at St. Paul’s today and yet, the doors are closed. Is this the true spirit of Christ?

    Wasn’t Jesus a revolutionary? If not, he would have died in bed and not on the cross.

    Let the Anglican Church in this country, apart from some small progressive pockets, nourish there horror and backwards believes against female and gay clergy/bishops (a homophobic bishop will lead the Whitehall carol service this year) but don’t count them in to be at the forefront of progressive movements.

    What would Jesus say?

     
    • Why should the church be at the forefront of a movement preaching the end of capitalist democracy, which has give those people lucky enough to have been born into it greater wealth and health and liberty than any other system in the history of the planet?

       
      • Wealth, as in that acrued by the one per cent at the cost of the 99 per cent? Health, as in minimum required to keep work-force going, corporatised and run on profit principle. Some illnesses are not cost-effective enough to treat, hope you don’t get ’em. And liberty to be enslaved to a single-track to oblivion, selfish, childish system that is obsessed with wealth for wealth’s sake?
        Let’s see, firstly, why would you think they’d be ‘at the forefront’, of a movement established with no ‘leaders’ and no borders?
        It is the distress of the people talking.
        Secondly, Jesus had a thing or two to say about helping each-other, money-lenders, giving everything away and following him in a universal consciousness of love, and rich men, as I recall.
        Finally, the movement is inclusive of everyone who stands for a fairer, sustainable future for everyone.If the church is unwilling to give up Ceasars gold and join with the very people whom it teaches us Jesus talked and engaged with, what DOES it stand for?
        As for ‘democracy’. A very good theory, but doesn’t work in fuedal England. Never did. An the whole point of the movement is to change a system that rewards itself exclusively, merely on the claim of inheritance.
        We all have EQUAL value.
        Peace

         
  27. Got wa chotty boys like?

     
  28. Good to see that you are buying your camping supplies from Sports Direct…. OccupyLSX is the most ironic statement I have seen for decades…

     
  29. The protest has my full support, it warms my heart to see young people putting the needs of society before their own needs. It gives me hope in very bleak times.
    I was so pleased when the Church welcomed you and dreadfully disapointed that it has now asked you to leave and closed it’s doors. This is reflecting the attention away from the issues.. I can’t join the camp, but I have written to the Dean to ask him to discuss the safety concerns he has and support you in the protest. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus would be in the camp than in the Cathedral right now. It might help if more of the public email write to the Church. Contact details here: http://www.stpauls.co.uk/People-at-the-Cathedral/Dean-Chapter

    Keep at it folks and I’ll pray for mild weather for you all.

     
    • Emms – if the protest had your “full support” you’d be camped out at St pauls. Clearly the fact you are not tells me that you believe in a different form of protest.

       
  30. I think most of the people posting must be insane. I’m so saddened by the anger and bitterness of so many of you. So some people have made a stand against a system that is truly failing? Why does it make you so angry? I have no idea why people should be so angry at the Occupy movement. I get no sense of any solutions or ideology or intellect from those attacking the protest (save for the fact that you just get a kick out of attacking people).
    I was looking at the Occupy Boston blogs and seeing a genuine movement to tackle the divisions in that city. As a teacher I see so many divisions in our society (yes, I know people who aren’t teachers see them too). I think it is vital that some people (regardless of what class or employment status they are) are making a peaceful protest and gaining publicity to highlight the problems in our society.
    I do feel ashamed that I failed to stop politicians taking us into wars that we didn’t need to be involved in. I feel ashamed that banks benefit when hospitals and schools do not. I know people protested against these things and nothing changed. If we take the attitude that “well, that’s just the way it is and our “democracy”is better than another country’s autocracy” then nothing will change. Our system must change. Is it morally right that a hedge fund trader gets paid more than a nurse? OK the market dictates that is how it should be. I really don’t see how it can be morally right.

    Bottom line, it’s good when people make a stand for equality. I just don’t see why this should make people so angry. perhaps it’s the time that we live in. Try to think about how aggressive you are and think about where that aggression comes from.

     
    • ‘Is it morally right that a hedge fund trader gets paid more than a nurse?’

      Is it morally right that Wayne Rooney gets paid more than a nurse?

       
    • I can’t wait for when you guys do get into power. Bagsy on the Committee for Moral Remuneration.

       
    • “So some people have made a stand against a system that is truly failing? Why does it make you so angry?”

      Because they’re defiling one of our country’s national institutions. What sympathy average people may have had for Occupy’s cause, it’s evaporating fast at the disgusting sight of this revolting shanty town on the doorstep of our country’s greatest cathedral.
      If they really cared for this country, instead of just themselves, they’d leave.

       
    • I’m angry because it ain’t fair! Life ain’t fair – wake up and smell the Starbucks coffee! So your protest highlights a failing system – in a way that’s supporting it – you want the system to work for you! My anger comes from me working to pay for people like you to sit in a tent for 3 months – protesting about how unfair the system is. Too right it is – go to work, pay your taxes to support the public services you mention and do something really useful – then I might feel less angry!

       
  31. I don’t understand why the camp isn’t moved on for obstruction.

     
    • David, sadly our police force have their hands tied by our lily-livered liberal society and the protesters know that. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if the police had to give out bacon sarnies and blankets c/o the Corp of London! Time for the water canon me thinks ….

       
  32. I’m sorry but you are coming accross as a group of arrogant and conceited individuals, claiming to be fighting for the rights of the masses by failing to consider the rights of others. “We once again urge the Cathedral to bring to our attention, immediately, the particular details of the health and safety issues to address them.”…..urrrrgggh, maybe the fact there are 500 people sleeping rough in a public place (or is it private property, i’m not sure)….go and protest, organise yourselves properly, set yourselves up in constituencies as a political party, organise talks throughout the city, get people motivated, I’d want vote for you myself!!! But sleeping rough en masse in the middle of the city and arguing that you have a “right” to do that is frankly not endearing me to the cause.

     
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