#OccupyLSX – Initial statement

 

At today’s assembly of over 500 people on the steps of St Paul’s, #occupylsx collectively agreed the initial statement below. Please note, like all forms of direct democracy, the statement will always be a work in progress.

1 The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.

2 We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities dis/abilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.

3 We refuse to pay for the banks’ crisis.

4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.

5 We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.

6 We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9th November, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.

7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.

8 We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.

9 This is what democracy looks like. Come and join us!

 

313 Responses to “#OccupyLSX – Initial statement”

  1. Please, we need to include that a thorough transparent investigation is conducted by a commission that we can all trust. Then we need to prosecute and punish all those that need to be held accountable. The worst legacy of this catastrophe is the bad example it sets for future generations in terms of being able to act outside the law and ethical conduct without any accountability. We need to udnerstand in depth why this all happened and who is to blame. And shame them and punish them accordingly.

     
    • Ed, quite simply put, no. It’s not about setting up tribunals and heads rolling, this reeks of ‘purges’. I personally think the 1%, whoever they are, simply benefit from a system that’s broken. Clean slate, start afresh, sure. But this is not about hate.

       
      • Yes! We cannot move forward with negative feelings of hate. This is about evolving into something better than we have been in the past. Calls for heads to roll and punishment of the evil doer are short term instant gratification thinking. And we’ll never be able to make a better future for everyone going down that road.

         
        • Responsible regulation does not need to be about “hate” or “purges”. It is eminently reasonable for people to want to see that people who have engaged in the corruption are not profiting from it without check. That’s not the same as the urge to punish, even though they may look similar to a casual observer. Any change *must* be able to convince people that the new system an be trusted or there’s no point in bothering.

           
        • to Love Resonates and McDave,
          thanks for replying to my comment.
          I dont think asking everyone to be responsible for their actions is a hate issue. It is just abiding by the rule of law. Organizing an investigation into why this catastrophe happened is not a measure seeking instant gratification, totally the opposite, it seeks to expose how and why this mess occured…the fact is nobody is 100% sure. The reason why this was allowed to happen in the first place is lack of transparency…and also lack of interest from us the public to be informed of what was happening….we ourselves allowed the system to be broken by not engaging and watching over our own economical issues.

          Seeking justice and truth is not hate and is not a short term measure in my point of view

           
          • i agree with ed in some respects, but not in the sense that we should persecute them for things whihc currently aren’t in the law, if we will persecute them it should be because of issues such as teerorism: killing innocent civilians ans intimidating them, in my view even the army benefits from these radical cuts because people whom can’t find work and are in their twenties will most probably end up going to war, getting paid a decent wage. we should get the 1% prosecuted for certain crimes against humaninty. Money is the main cause of the bad things that tend to happen. Thus if the 1% had the money, they would make more through corruption war etc…. these are the crimes they should be prosecuted for, no the initial benefit of this 1% money gain through the systems failures.

            Also, we need to stop printing money, which is increasing inflation and will eventually cause even more finical benefits to this 1% who have invested in tangible assets, if anything this is making tangible assets more expensive due to inflation due to this, meaning they are still happy.

            * I’m 14, it doesn’t make sense how we are so exposed to this sort of stuff, all teens are watching these sense and see the flaws in politics. Bet it wasn’t like that 30 years ago, when the system wasn’t completely flawed.

             
          • sorry about my spelling, I was trying to get my points on the screen quickly ..

             
          • We know that punishment does not prevent abuse. We also know that it tends not to deter abusers, as so few actually are caught. We also know that it can be used to scapegoat.

            We know that prevention requires a clear understanding of the roots of the problem – indeed that the visible problem is most often a symptom of a deeper underlying cause.

            I ask this question : why is there such a profound lack of empathy, not only in Institutions and Power, when it is clear that our biology is mandated towards empathy, as expressed in so many ‘other’ older cultures, as expressed in the dynamic of child-mother bonding and limbic imprinting at birth (the way experience codes the development of neurology and physiology)?

            What are those processes that undermine the natural development of that crucial empathy, which is the natural glue of all healthy relationships?

            Another way to look at this is to note that the prevailing psychology of any society is revealed and perpetuated by how that society treats it’s children?

            Our current paradigm appears to be competitive, violent, aggressive, hierarchical and is clearly not functioning to nurture ALL the people equally….. what is at the root of this?

            Answer that an we can begin to suggest deeper changes across society to engender a nurturant societal paradigm!

             
      • I think it depends:

        If the solution is as radical as switching to bitcoins or a barter system then, sure, we can forgive and forget. We’ll have enough on our plate getting the new system running.

        If we give capitalism one more chance and take the regulation route then people should go to jail (e.g. Goldman Sachs for promoting junk CDOs) just like after the US Savings and Loans crisis a few decades ago (a thousand or so execs jailed?).

         
      • People facing due process in front of tribunals and being held accountable is not necessarily about hate. This Augean stables needs to be cleaned and you can’t continue with the same people in charge of the fiasco unpunished or simply having a slap on the wrist.

         
      • It’s not “hate”. It is “justice”. The bankers have acted fraudulently . They have broken the law. Are they prosecuted? No. They are “rewarded” with big bonuses and their failures mitigated with taxpayers money. NO MORE! Debt to pay more debt is a ludicrous solution and only enables the bankers to perpetuate their wealth acquisition.

        http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544

        A market economy is a failed paradigm. We are not defined by mathematical game theory-we are human. We can empathise and sympathise. Corporate entities do not. They have no social affinity, no concept of loyalty or compassion and It has been shown time and time again that it fosters political corruption, systematically dismantles social infrastructure and rides rough-shot over liberties. The American neo-conservatives tried it in Russia-it failed. It lead to hyper inflation, industrial stagnation, high unemployment and no social support safety-net meaning millions on the streets selling whatever they could to buy food.

        We should be demanding that the politicians (once again) represent the masses. They have failed us. Our voting system has failed us. All mainstream parties have the same policies based on Neo-Conservative doctrine. They need to start making policies on ideals that benefit the voters, not nightmares and numbers that benefit the self-interested market..

        http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650

         
      • No you’re so wrong. watch this video to see someone put it better than I or anyone else here ever could

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCRnkamitVk

        And no it’s not just in America, the UK and EU are just the same, Yes the ConDem coalition are crooks but Old Labour, New Labour or the Greens wont save you either.

        It’s time to grow up. I spent two nights at St Pauls, I spoke to a lot of people there and heard what people had to say. I realise that many there are undergoing their political awakening, I support you because you care and that’s a start.

        But some of us have been watching this monster for a lot longer than just the last few years. You can call us kooks and conspiracy theorists but as time goes on our warnings are shown all the more accurate. We don’t want any praise, just hope people will think again about what we are really dealing with.

        You can’t win until you know who you are up against, and you’ll never know that until you’ve took a look in the mirror to find out who you really are. “Know thyself, Know thy enemy a thousand battles a thousand victories” – Sun Tzu

        Yes, I think Jesus really did throw the moneylenders out of the temple for a reason. But even if he didn’t, it’s a fable that everyone should read.

        You see, the banksters have a plan (the ones who get to work in limousines, not the tube.) They are organised, they know exactly what they are doing and why.

        Don’t let people put you off track, it was the money power which bought out and corrupted our politics not the other way round. But these chicken and egg arguments are just there to divide our efforts.

        You’ll never get anywhere until you reach out to those scary people on “the right”, underneath their defense mechanisms they are human beings just like anyone else and believe me, they are also scared about exactly the same things. You deal with these people whether knowingly or otherwise every day.

        You also need to reach out to the soldiers who have actually seen the front lines of the illegal wars this country has been fighting. Very few of them return the same gung-ho cowboys that marched off without a care. The ones who do, these are the real psychopaths and easily identified. .

        The politicians are just a sideshow now- ignore them, never vote for them. We have been suckered into only voting in personalities, who then get carte-blanche for five years. Is that democracy? Was it ever?

        Global non-compliance with their agenda is our only hope of victory. But If we really want to change the system, people are going to have to go to jail. Politicians, bankers and journalists, they have committed terrible crimes without ever weilding the knife themselves. They are cowards, and you are making them very uncomfortable in their ivory towers

        It might be OK for Western Liberals to say they can forgive and forget. But think of the real victims down in their graves in the Middle East, South America, South East Asia and Eastern Europe, ask them whether they want justice. But of course, they can’t tell you. So who will speak for them?

         
        • You say “Global non-compliance with their agenda is our only hope of victory.”

          How do you suggest we start?
          Julie.d 99% er

           
      • I once met an extremely wealthy guy who told me that he lived to make money. He just loved to make more money than the next guy because it’s what gave him satisfaction in life. He even went to jail for it. And in his own way, he was an honest fella. It’s interesting that he didn’t use his wealth to actually do anything useful or tasteful. Maybe he was just really modest, and gave it all away. I’ll never know. What I do know is that the Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffetts of this world are few and far between, and that is a crying shame.

         
        • So I’ve got this crazy idea of turning income tax as a status-symbol. But we all need to participate – no tax-havens, no offshore accounts. But income tax based on choice – as a voter, why can’t I choose where my tax gets spent? Everything beyond the basic rate of income tax could have a list of items that we could allocate a percentage of our tax towards. Think healthcare for all is important? Give it more money. Invest in society.

          That’s the thing that’s depressed me about the British Left. They’ve blown every chance they’ve had to create that possibility, and they blew it. If you’re fortunate enough to be in the 40 or 50% tax-brackets, you should have an ongoing say in how the country’s run. It’s meritocratic and fair.

          Start thinking of our society as Society PLC. It’s ours; you invest, you get the rewards – better educated kids, public transport that works, more police on the beat… you could make it happen – if you demand it of your Government. And believe it or not, they work for us. We need to remind them of that.

           
          • Like your suggestion and will give it thought. Thanks
            Julie.d 99%er

             
          • Why should you have a larger say just because you earn more? That’s almost as ridiculous idea as saying you can’t vote if you live in a council house.

             
    • Blame is NOT important, it’s about responsibility. We will take responsibility for our future. We will change the world.

      Punishing those who messed it up will not help us, educating them might.

       
      • But they are educated, they simply don’t give a fuck, because there is nowhere near enough deterrent. These people are psychopaths, void of empathy. If they think they can get away with it, they’ll try it.

         
        • Too true, rich, educated, well aware of the injustices but do not give a fuck! so we have to make them give a shit or have them arrested for their crimes to humanity and the environment globally.

           
          • It is important not to personalise this with threats of retribution. It is the system that is primarily at fault, not individuals.Whilst anyone found to have broken the law should be prosecuted, we must accept that we are all a product of our environment and this applies to the v rich too. They did not all choose to be born into wealthy families and be subjected to the conditioning that flows from this. We need to get these folks onside with rational argument. Those that refuse to accept the moral logic will eventually become irrelevant. Concentrate on changing the system, not persecuting individuals – much as some may deserve it.

             
      • I think we’re talking about rules of ethics. When our (UK) MPs took their expenses too far – and the public/press got wind of it, they were shamed into re-paying them and obviously some went to prison – even though all they were doing was bending the rules rather than breaking them. Wall St workers and bankers around the world are more annonymous than politicians. If we could get the press and public to a) know some of them and b) put as much pressure on them to behave openly and ethically, then I think that is the answer. Remove their annonimity and put them under public scrutiny. That’s the way to do it IMO.

         
    • I totally agree with the sentiment of what you guys are doing but in my humble opinion you need to be more focused about what changes you think you should be implmented. Of the 9 points I just read above they all sound great but I think you would be better off talking about specific changes that you think should be implemented incorporporating the humanitarian ‘direction’ you are pushing in. Im sure if you did this you would get alot more support from people generally. I think quoting statistics like 1% + 99%, and are arguing that all corportaions are corrupt and made up of fat cats is not quite the point or true…? We live in a society in which the richer you are the more you are taxed, and the less you have the more benefits you recieve so I dont think the angry route is best – there are alot of positives in our society which we should all remember. Anyway, thats my 2pence and I hope this movement is the start of building for a better future.

       
    • read comment below top 5 or more comments fast!

       
    • Did you know that in The Bible Moses used to pitch up his tent some distance away from the camp, calling it the ‘tent of meeting’? Moses’ story is intriguing and exciting stuff, well worth a read. Thank you for chosing a house of God to pitch your tents around, many people are praying for you all over the country. I am sure that you have considered the wonderful works a cathedral is involved in on a day today basis, all the world wide projects that they support amongst the poor and marginalised, appreciate the thousands of prayers said daily for all your concerns, and have already begun to seek alternative places to pitch your tents. God bless you

       
  2. May I suggest point 7 read ‘We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for ALL people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or A SMALL WEALTHY MINORITY’. I’ve made the changes in caps. Just a suggestion, see you soon.

     
    • But as citizens of the West we ARE ALL part of the small wealth minority, do we really want to drastically reduce our standard of living in order to share the resources with all 7 billion?

       
      • You might want to try putting your salary into this calculator

        http://www.globalrichlist.com/

         
      • Actually, as citizens of the West we are NOT all part of the privileged minority. All societies are ridden by class divisions and simply because we live in the West doesn’t mean we’re the exploiters. Last time I checked I had no job, no steady supply of income, and the public services I rely on are being decimated so don’t hold me accountable for the ills of a class divided society and the exploitation and barbarism inherent in Capitalism. Thanks very much.

         
        • Did you put the value of your benefits payment into the calculator?

           
          • The UK unemployment benefit would put you amongst the top 15% income wise in the world.

            The issue with that however is that the UK is also quite a bit more expensive to live in than most of the world. And I don’t really see that site taking cost of living into account.

             
      • Thanks Chazza, I was scrolling through these posts tirelessly waiting for someone to point this out.

        While economic collapse has begun to show its face in western society, in most “3rd world” countries, YOU ALL are the 1%. and playing the blame game should then start at home if that’s your agenda. Personally I’d prefer that solutions were being discussed instead of orchestrating a witch-hunt.

         
        • It’s shocking that people don’t realise this. That someone can post something on the internet – clearly having access to a computer and electricity is a sign they have zero in common with someone that lives in poverty in the developing world. Anyone that takes sewer systems and water for granted does not know what poverty is.

           
    • Trying again as for some reason my comment’s been stuck in this site’s moderation for ages:

      A group I run the website for has a calculator at http://www.givingwhatwecan.org/resources/how-rich-you-are.php which shows you just how rich you really are, relative to the global poor. If you like you can also try out this one: http://www.givingwhatwecan.org/resources/what-you-can-achieve.php. It’ll show you how much good you can do by taking a pledge to give at least 10% of your income to the most cost-effective charities. It’d be great if this could be fed into ‘we are the 99%’ discussions. The reality is that, globally, we are the 1%, or at least the 4%. And pledges like this are an instant way people can change things for the better themselves – not just rich bankers (though this applies to them a thousandfold!), but also ordinary people like you and me.

       
  3. Great. Glad to have been there today.

    I would like to suggest involving other generally libertarian groups such as couchsurfing.org

    Please, if you are a member, or even better, ambassador/moderator on couchsurfing or similar movements please tell everyone to come along.

    We are the 99%

     
  4. Excellent all and only the second day! Agree with all those points whole-heartedly. I aim to be coming down and seeing you all asap 🙂 Keep going and I hope you get all you need for the upcoming turn in weather.

     
  5. Point 1 on sustainability implies it, but there is no explicit statement about the folly of pursuing perpetual economic growth (and the grave implications for the financial system – now that the basis of production has been desecrated – of its demise) .The sheer stupidity of the 1% in doing so, and the terrifying power of the mainstream media in propagating the meme, need to be widely understood.

     
  6. Yeah and you’re going to get such a great response….nothing will come of this. It will filter into a ‘yeah nice movement, great to have freedom of speech, now lets move on and get on with life’. The thing is a lot of us have never had it so good, take away some of the ease of life we have and we retaliate with occupying place of religious significance not financial (which makes no sense). Don’t get me wrong I am not a banker, a finance dude I am struggling like many protesters but I prefer to not feel down trodden but to ge tup and work even harder, to take the cut and appreciate what i do have. I just thinks the occupiers have such a ridiculous way of looking at life. Life is tough get on and live it, don’t compare your pennies with someones millions it will only lead to unhappiness and hours fo frustrations sleeping on the steps of St Paul’s.

     
    • Our point is that where so many are downtrodden, to ‘work even harder and take the cut’ means accepting a flawed system and allowing it to continue to create huge disparities, in which case you are merely just a drop of oil that helps a rusty machine chug along a little longer. Its the people who believe they can make a difference, do whatever they can to illuminate the injustice and work hard in the long term for changes to the institutions that uphold such injustice and inequality that bring forward social change.
      ‘Life is tough get on and live it’ – yes. But lets get on and live and work hard for structural changes that will redistribute wealth and power and bring about a new system that functions for the majority not the minority. This isn’t about a few lazy kids getting pissed off that they don’t have as much money as the elites. This is about people calling for a change to a system that allows the bankers, the corporations, the landed elite and so forth to consume and hoard our wealth, power and resources while the poor, downtrodden, marginalised and persecuted bear the brunt. It doesn’t have to be like this. Things will stay the same as long as those with vested interests can continue successfully to project a message that the way things are now is ‘just the way it is’ and we must accept that and trudge on. Another world is possible.

       
      • An excellent rejoiner and point well made, Beth. But probably lost on the poor corporate slaves, desperately trying to hold on to their dreams of weath by chundering out the old cliches and platitudes that used to work. Before people started to wake up to their situation and look for alternatives, and find them.
        I am not a spoilt kid. I am 54 yr old, medically ‘retired’ (thrown on the heap) after three heart attacks from workin too damn hard for too damn little,single parent.. No money. No future. No hope of seeing change untill, ironically because for the first time I had time on my hands, I began to discover the growing movement for change and it’s instigators.
        It cost a weeks food money and serious risk to my health, but I travelled the 100 miles to be there on Saturday.
        Now there is hope. For me and thousands like me who were lied to and now have nothing. Savings. Ha. Pensions. Life insurance. Value of house. All swallowed up. By greedy f*****s who already have too much and yet want more and more. I’m sure it is a mental illness.
        Don’t give up. Keep it going now and eventually they will have to respond, like a child staying on the naughty-step untill they say sorry.
        They have acted like children and need a mature role-model to help them away from gratification and greed, into the spiritually evolved age that is being born.
        I probly won’t see it, but I’ll go with hope in my heart for you and the future.
        The world changed on the 15th October 2011.
        Thank you for standing up for what is right.
        Tho we may not be able to join the occupation, I’m sure you will find much support amongst those like me.
        Get the word out there.
        Change the world.
        Stay safe.
        We are the 99 percent !

         
        • The “value of your house” was nothing but a theoretical amount, inflated by low interest rates and lax regulation of the mortgage industry (and, in the US, a lot more financial skulduggery) – all so that we would feel rich and vote the crooks back into parliament. (The Treasury was quite fond of all the Stamp Duty income too – they actually wrote to me saying that.)

          But yeah, I agree with the rest of your post and respect for being there on Saturday. (So was I for a few hours.)

           
          • Thanks Bob.
            All constructive criticism is gratefully received 🙂 you’re right, I see it now.
            Well done for being there – awesome wasn’t it? I’ve ‘activated’ (woken up) a few people back home, and we’re collecting stuff and plan to deliver it soon. Main thing is…spread the word.

             
    • Sally, you’re a mug. It’s not about comparing what we have to people with millions, this is about those people, who are already super-rich, wanting MORE and wanting to take it from us. The financial crisis was the biggest heist in history; a clever way of transferring our taxes into the pockets of the filthy rich. And still they want more. They are sorest winners ever. You take it sitting down if you want Sally, the rest of us are going to DO SOMETHING.

      As far as the manifesto goes, how about including something that speaks to long-term democracy, something that says we don’t simply want to cast a vote every 5years:

      “We demand a right to meaningful involvement in the democratic process.”

       
      • Chir0on, just who is the mug? Sally because she is prepared to put forward an opposing view or you because you disagree with her view so you throw an insult? You call for a right to meaningful involvement in democracy, yet seem unable to handle opposing views without wishing to be dominant and make her feel less worthy. Just how will that work in your utopia? “I don’t like your views, so you’re a mug”? You have all the tools available for a meaningful involvement in democracy. You already have that right. All you need to do is use it, and persuade enough others that you are right and you can take over. But I think Sally is right. Nothing will come of this. Other than some violence, some destruction, some injury which will all be pointless & ultimately convince the masses that your way is no different to the current way.

         
        • JR, thank you. Chir0n, Yes a mug to you maybe but I honestly don’t care about your opinion and the preconceived ideas anyone has about me because of my comments. What I do know is in this economic climate my dad’s 30 year old company is failing. But he doesn’t sit on the steps of St Paul’s campaigning that he deserves more compared to others wealth. No at 65 he gets up earlier and stays at work later, he knocks on more doors for work and with this his company is now managing. His thoughts are that he doesn’t like it but if this is how the banks & financial system has to be then he should just get on with it. He and I think that the system although not perfect has in the past helped us out with extra credit, increased property values, comfortable lifestyles paid for on credit and an unrealistic level of increased wealth for ‘joe public’. Now it has become hard we cannot keep asking for something that is no longer available. I am proud of my dad, he is someone who is proof that pulling together and working hard gets us through something like this. He is not ignorant to the cause everyone is campaigning but he is understanding of the reality of how we have ended up here and what is needed to get us out of this situation. Nothing was ever given to another for free and for years we have been living a life on credit now we reap the results of this.

           
          • Kudos to your Dad for working so hard. Many people are working hard right now. But why does he accept that this is the way that the financial system has to be? Why does he accept that he has to work twice as hard, when there is enough wealth in this country to spread around?!
            Do you really think that bankers deserve to earn the amount they do?! Sure (some of them) do an important job and no doubt work very hard, but does not a teacher or cleaner work very hard and benefit society greatly?
            Some of the 1% haven’t produced any real material benefits for the rest of society, in fact they have done the very opposite!
            The true scandal of the last 30 years has been the vast transferral of wealth from the bottom to the top – through wage suppression, and in the interests of ‘competitivity’.
            The financial system is obviously not working for your dad – why does he accept this?!
            Please try to examine the assumptions you and your dad make about fundamental concepts of fairness and justice.

             
          • Sally, there’s a lot to be said for your Dad’s way of doing things and you’ve got to respect a man who works hard, but you’re wrong to think that this is just about people wanting more. This is about people wanting what’s fair. And it does NOT have to be this way.

            As the system gradually deregulated the financiers used OUR money to play risky investment games and when it all went wrong, rather than selling off all the ivory back-scratchers and cars and private jets and mansions, they asked for MORE of OUR money to bail them out. Is it really a time for sitting back and suffering in silence? Because if we respond by suffering quietly, they’ll try something even more outrageous next time.

            Your father’s noble stoicism plays into the hands of those who believe they can get away with ripping us off. He and people like him deserve better.

             
        • Excuse me JR, but doesn’t Democracy imply a right to disagree with someone? Just as you have a right to criticise my statement and I then have a right to defend it, or if I think you’ve misunderstood, explain myself.

          Sally says she’s going to simply take it on the chin, to let these people get away with screwing her over. Doesn’t that make her a mug?

          I think it would be good for her to be disabused of the idea that this is how things “need to be”, but she can choose to ignore me or call me a cunt if she likes- that’s the beauty of democracy. Idiot.

           
      • Good, this is beginning to sound like the Putney Debates – support Rainborough and watch out for|Cromwell.

         
    • we can not longer just get up and work harder, this doesn’t achieve anything but government and corporate organisations taking more of the money you have earned with your life, you can work until you drop and the financial corporates and governments just want to send the bailiffs round, security forces having to increase to protect from poverty driven crime when the real criminals are the uncaring 1%, this financial crisis is effecting everyone but some Mob type rich gangsters, are laughing at us, they can afford military forces to protect themselves from the outcry from the people around the world, using the usual intimidation tactics, the vulnerable of society are suffering and some can not manage to express their frustrations so that’s why we’re here to express that the global masses won’t stand or work for it any more, rather fight against it for the sake of my children, their children and their children’s children for several generations ahead, we are responsible and intend to let the 1% know that they are responsible for the crimes they commit.

       
    • If you are truly suffering like everyone else then tell me why you think it’s ok to continue like this? At what point will you finally make a stand?
      You say “many have never had it so good”. Who told you that?
      Are your heating costs going up?
      Hasn’t your petrol gone up?
      Have your wages gone up?
      What about what you spend in the supermarket. Hasn’t that gone up?
      Will you be getting a liveable pension when you retire? If you manage to live until then?
      Agree that life is tough, tougher for some than others but when I am told that it’s time to tighten our belts for the sake of our country, yet we spend 12 million a day in Afganistan I just have to say NO.
      FULL SUPPORT FOR OCCUPY THE WORLD.
      You are one of the 99% like it or not.
      Regards
      Julie.d

       
      • If you are truly suffering like everyone else then tell me why you think it’s ok to continue like this? At what point will you finally make a stand?
        I don’t feel like it is 100% the fault of the government. Maybe some the blame should be put on people like you who stood back and enjoyed the benefits of the system when it went your way but moan when it is not. When did you just start realising their was an issue? Did you champaign 5 years ago when your house prices/ wages etc. where going up? Did you question it all when times were good?

        You say “many have never had it so good”. Who told you that? Compare to other countries and we have it good. Not 3rd world countries I’m talking about America. Imagine what it would be like if on top of any cuts you still had to finance a visit to the Dr if you got sick. If you benefits last only 5 years in your whole life, if your taxes where nearly 50% of your wage. My mum was just telling about when she grew-up and what they had to save up for months for a box of chocolates, my dad and his 3 brother lived in a 1 bedroom house.. look back we have never had it so good.

        Are your heating costs going up? Sure as are everyone else’s but that’s part of the cost of inflation from a system we abused in the first place. This is a result that we never questions a system where there was an endless supply of credit, loans, it had to stop at some point

        Hasn’t your petrol gone up? Don’t own a car, maybe you should look at that too

        Have your wages gone up? yes they have thank you I work hard for that and have created skills in areas that allow that to still keep happening. I didn’t get one skill and then rest on that for life.

        What about what you spend in the supermarket. Hasn’t that gone up? yes see above, of course and I accept that this part of this credit crunch culture that we all allowed to happen.

        Will you be getting a liveable pension when you retire? If you manage to live until then? I am planning now to look after myself as I can’t accept that I should allow a government to look after me. Just because in the westernised culture this is an accepted practice it is not something globally accepted. I plan to look after myself for my entire life, I don’t think it’s acceptable to stop working and just allow others to then look after me. I also don’t accept that the money I put in to the system will be enough to support me when I am 70 and even more ageing years. That’s unrealistic.

        Agree that life is tough, tougher for some than others but when I am told that it’s time to tighten our belts for the sake of our country, yet we spend 12 million a day in Afganistan I just have to say NO.
        FULL SUPPORT FOR OCCUPY THE WORLD.
        You are one of the 99% like it or not.
        I don’t accept that life is as black and white as 99% and 1% on this. How ridiculous is that, maybe as ridiculous as thinking that by sleeping on the steps of St Paul’s this will change any of the above. And lets throw Afghanistan into the argument.. because of course that created the situation that we are in, not your spending on credit, not studies at university, expectations of lower interest rates, the holidays we take, the way you voted this year, last year the years before and how your choices in past years has helped contribute to the society we now live in. Lets not blame ourselves but blame the system that we helped shape.

         
        • Wow – you guys are really scaring me. You talk about “fair distribution of wealth” – are you serious? This has never been achieved in any society since the dawn of time! What makes you think you can achieve this now? And no I am not being defeatist, I am being a realist. The closest thing to it is communism and look how successful that is! And even in communist societies the rich are still damn rich, they are just better at oppressing the masses. You say you want what’s “fair”… wowsers – never have I heard a more subjective word in my life! How exactly do you think people are going to agree on what’s fair – it simply cannot be done. What’s “fair” to me is certainly not going to be the same as what’s “fair” to you. A great ideology, impossible in practise.

          And what exactly are you going to do with all this wealth when you get it? Invest it into multi-billion pound projects to stimulate the economy and provide employment? No I didn’t think so. Don’t you get it that we have to attract wealth into this country to have any chance of getting out of this downturn? If you try and strip the wealth away or increase taxes they will leave and the oh so low amount of tax you think they pay will become zero tax, zero cash injection into our economy, zero chance of recovery.

          Sally’s right – if any of you have ever had a credit card bill that you didn’t pay off in full or bought something on a finance deal (who can forget “buy now don/t pay anything for 200 years”?!) then you have contributed to this so take a look at yourself before blaming the system. If you don’t want to be a part of it and don’t want to contribute to the system then take all your money out of the bank and put it under you mattress – go on I dare you, then we’ll see what happens. You’ll get your wish, global financial meltdown – banks ceasing to exist, governments falling – sounds great.

          Let’s not forget you had choices before the recession happened – if you didn’t want the evil banks to play with your pension fund money you could have taken out a private pension and invested it in a low risk investment fund. Guaranteed low returns – oh yes but that’s right you didn’t do this because you wanted the nice employer top up or the cushty final salary plan.
          Oh and by the way – energy and fuel prices have gone up because the price of oil has gone up. This is because OPEC (the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries i.e. the Middle East) have decided to withhold supplies of their oil so that they can charge more for it which they have done for decades. Good luck changing the regimes in those countries.

           
  7. I like it. Obviously these demands can not be met by anyone by say, next Tuesday at 8.00… but at least it’s the beginning of getting a debate going. We have now 7bn people and resources of all kinds are running out. A capitalist system reliant on +3% growth every year has to be scrapped. All the old thinking has to go in the bin. It must, or we face catastrophe within two decades. All the best, ♥♥♥♥♥. Amor omnia vincit.

     
  8. So much about the current system is unsustainable. But here are my concerns, you claim to represent the people.
    The last time people claimed to do that we saw horrible scenes, do you remember? Loutish students hanging off the Cenotaph. Anarchist swine urinating on the statue of Winston Churchill.

    If you want what’s best for this country, support this country and show you care for our proud history and heritage, a heritage that transcends gender or race. This is our home and I am proud that you are fighting for it.

    But when an avereage fellow such as myself sees the Globalist hordes marching through London and desecrating symbols of our great war time sacrifice, it leaves me bitter.
    I’m English, I’m proud to be English and I want England to be a fairer nation in which the politically illiterate masses are dragged up by their bootstraps and driven into enlightenment. But you cannot build a better future by alienating those who value the past.

    You protestors are patriots. I truly believe that. But I ask you to be mindful of the opportunistic serpents in your midst, there are those who will sully your cause and allow this disgraceful media to label you all as malcontents and misanthropes.
    They’re already ignoring you, don’t let them paint you as the villains.

    Cheers!
    – Ron

     
    • Ron
      Hopefully you and many others will see what the Occupy movement is so desperately trying to do. Yes it will be hard yes there will be many obstacles to overcome but we must.
      Keep the faith Ron and spread the word.
      It is for all those that love our country, that we make a stand.
      Regards
      Julie.d

       
  9. Lobbyists! For goodness sake we have to do something about lobbyists! We have to get the money factor out of politics. It is the one percent who spend so much money on politicians. If they weren’t allowed to simply throw donation after donation at them then that would force the politicians to actually work for us.

     
  10. Would like to see the following specific points added:

    – to pt 4: LVT land tax – the fairest tax there is (supported by the unholy trio of Adam Smith, Karl Marx and Winston Churchill), and one which would help curb property speculation and land-banking.

    – to pt 7: Citizens’/Basic Income for all as a right of citizenship. Already in place in some parts of some countries. This is the only way forward from the structural worldwide failure – because unsustainable – of GDP.

     
  11. I am from Syria, and a 99%er . I joined the occupation yesterday because I am tired of governments seeking the interest of a very small group, be it political or economic.

    The so called “democratic” governments has a long history in supporting dectatorships around the world, and our criminal president, one example of so many, has always got that support. This has always happened and continues to happend because it serves the interest of the 1%-ers.

    I think it needs to be stressed more, here in the UK as well as in othe places, that the 99%-ers should have their stands on foreign policy. The people should take their responsibility and have the final say in foreign policy matters that influcence hundreds of thousands of people across the globe. Politicians need to understand that they are not there to serve the interest of the local 1%-ers, but rather the interest of the global 99%ers.

    I wish that would be considered seriously in the Occupy LSX statement.

     
    • Ah, but does the common man have the sheer ruthlessness necessary to make the tough choices? The world is ugly and to carve out your little corner of paradise often involves dealing with monsters from time to time.

      The problem with being moral is that you begin to attract every leech and parasite within a twelve mile radius. Seizing and maintaining power is done through brutality, deception and doublespeak. Great men bringing prosperity to the plebs by controlling their baser urges. It’s one of lifes amusing little ironies, the power of the individual is only established by utilitarianism, the illusion of freedom. We cannot remove this illusion, we must simply make it more presentable.

      Give every street cleaner and plumper a say in foreign policy and you will be at the mercy of a gutter press and a bigoted and shortsighted populace whose idea of polite conversation either involves professional sports or pornography.

       
      • 1. The ‘common man’ has to make extremely tough choices every day. eg Do I feed my kids or pay the council tax? Do I take time off work to see a doctor about the pains in my chest, and risk losing my job? And many more that you clearly have not suffered and therefore are ill-equiped to make such sweeping statements about.
        2. The world is ugly because you, and your complacent, arrogant buddies are in it.
        3. We are the ones trying to STOP paradise – our planet – from being carved up by corporate idiots. YOU are the monsters.
        4. The problem with presenting a ‘moral’ facade, while openly behaving in unprincipled, unethical, blinkered, dishonourable, unscrupulous, sociopathic and flagrantly ammoral ways, is that sooner or later you will be brought to account.
        5. Seizing and maintaining ‘power’ can be done through peaceful negotiation, democracy and joined-up thinking, by evolved human beings who do not have the mental illness known as avarice.
        6. ‘Great’ men bring honesty, integrity and respect to their leadership skills, seek to engage the abilities and intelligence of those whom they represent, and would never call them “plebs”.
        7. It is another of lifes little ironies, that ‘utilitarianism’ – the concept that the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people should be the motivation for action – is the last thing your abuse of Democracy has achieved…quite the reverse…
        We could have a ‘utilitarian’ world today, simply by redistributing wealth and land and learning to live within our means.
        8. The power of the individual is his ability to join with other individuals in the face of crisis.
        9. The delusion of freedom is only maintained by a pitiful minority who do not know what the word means, but believe it to be found in the incessant aquisition of an arbitrary tool of commerce.
        They are blind and deaf to those who are trying to cure them of this illness and will probably need to be kept apart from the new, balanced world because thier tiny arrogant, complacent, conceited, egotistical, codescending, self-important little brains won’t be able to cope with it.
        Salute

         
    • It will be. I believe that all the points raised here, all the unfairness will eventually become so obvious that at every tipping point we will move forward to a fairer society, a fairer world. I am optimistic.
      Keep the faith
      Julie.d

       
  12. May i suggest the use of bitcoins as an alternative to the current centralized banking system. You should set up donations in bitcoins > promote a decentralized monetary system not controlled by the 1% but an open source controlled by the 99%. for more info http://bitcoin.org/.

     
    • Bitcoins: just, no. I can’t believe anyone can really think they’re a useful solution to anything.

       
      • they are more useful then paper. they can be traded internationally, there are virtually no fee’s. no central authority to dictate rates, they are digital, and the source code has proved to be extremely resilient. the more people who use them, the more u will here about them. be an early adopter spread the word. 99% bitcoin

         
  13. Nice aims, but can you come up with one real practical way of implementing them? 5 is the only item that has a point, and is achievable and with regards to the others.
    – what IS the alternative?
    – set up a political party and see if you can get people to back you. If you cant, thats not because of corruption, just people don’t back you.
    Lastly – no, you are not being democratic, you are trying to get unequal say for what you believe!

     
    • there are many alternatives. i just named one ^^^^

       
  14. That’s a great start. Keep it rolling. Congratulations to all concerned.

     
  15. We have also got to put an end to governments borrowing money on our behalf because we shouldn’t be responsible for this. this should be stopped as it is totally fraudulent!

     
    • …especially when so much of it is spent on war.

       
    • 12 million a day is invested in the war in Afghanistan.
      This should be stopped immediately not just because of the financial cost but the cost of life.
      Julie.d

       
  16. Hi! I’m following this occupation from Barcelona. This next weekend I’ll be coming to London, I’ll visit and see how you are doing. After living through the Occupation here, I’m so happy when I see a new city start a fresh new one, with their own flavour but aiming at the same, united, global evolution! ;^)

     
    • Great to hear you are joining us in London.
      Your experiences and support will be welcome.
      My sister Tina and I will be back there from tomorrow 🙂
      Julie.d 99%er

       
  17. Superb statement. Actually looks/reads/sounds like it was written by real people. Which it was .
    #OccupyWallStreet
    #occupylsx

     
  18. Could you make a 10th demand : Global financial institutions that have committed financial crimes causing poverty, starvation and death must be tried in the court of human rights.

     
    • That is all of them. Capitalism does that.

       
  19. Of course we need to express solidarity with the poor and oppressed, the 99%, but we must understand that there will be no progress unless it is by all and for all.

     
  20. Surely point 5 is congruent to what Ed says in comment 1? The point is the system has allowed white collar crimes for long enough – and in the future those who have acted “unethically” for personal gain must surely be held accountable – otherwise what are we doing here??

     
  21. Nice historical parallel for manifestos & St Pauls: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Conclusions_of_the_Lollards

     
  22. Excellent statement. It encompasses as broad an agreement of views as possible. The whole point of the 99% is that we are the majority, and within us there will be different views and positions on the political spectrum, but the vast majority can agree with that and influence the mainstream. Well done. Was glad to be with you yesterday, and hope you stay. Headlines of bbc news 🙂

     
  23. Keep up the great work my friends. I am sorry I cant be in London but we do have one going on up here in Glasgow.

    Also can you visit the link below at YouTube and give a BIG thank you to the Reverend Giles Fraser for allowing and supporting the Occupy London Stock exchange at St Paul’s Cathedral.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXeN060QZXY

     
  24. I’d like to propose a point that commits the London Assembly to the use of nonviolence as the official methodology of this movement. Even if it means organising some workshops to understand what it is, I think it would be excellent to say this loud and clear. Certainly it will help participation and some great materials have been circulated and appear on the http://www.takethesquare.net website: http://howtocamp.takethesquare.net/category/civil-disobedience/non-violence-civil-disobedience/

     
  25. Hardly a manifesto. Confused. Point 1 means what? What is “the system”? Economic? Political? Social? Are these the same thing? Should they be identified as such?

     
  26. the revolution will not be televised. nor be peaceful. the 99% are not happy, but it will be the 1% who provoke the violence.

     
    • Maybe, but we will do everything in our power to keep it peaceful

       
  27. i am so proud of all the Occupy LSX protesters! i wish i could be there, but i have an autistic child. what is needed is a resource based economy. watch the zeitgeist films… scary scary stuff

     
    • Yes, do watch the Zeitgeist movies, and also other “truth” movies like Money as Debt, The Money Masters, The Secret of Oz etc. – they are thought provoking – but watch them with a critical eye and don’t trust what you’re seeing as outright fact.

      Zeitgeist in particular is littered with lies, baseless conjecture and distortions of the truth. Pause of some of the quotes in the movie and Google them and you’ll often find many of them are mis-quotes or conflations of separate speeches taken out of context for example. Conspiracy theorists are masters of cherry picking evidence to build a compelling narrative around a predetermined conclusion.

      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence – always look at the issues from more than one point of view.

       
      • William I am afraid you are confusing Zeitgeist The Movie with The Zeitgeist Movement. Have a look at the video below for some clarifications:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k9rhW2zWMI&feature=recentf

        The Zeitgeist Movement is not about conspiracy theories, comparative religion, false flag terrorism or TRUTH SEEKING. It’s a social movement pointing the root causes of the problems in our society, presenting a sustainable value system and socioeconomic system named a Resource Based Economy. Do you research and question the hell out of it. Find more information at: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

         
  28. We need to demand the closing-down of ALL tax havens, which requires global governance and political will on the part of our ‘elites’. Nothing less will do.

     
    • Totally agreed. Tax havens are a huge part of the problem. Mandatory jail sentences for tax evaders!

       
    • Tax havens do nothing to the structural inequality of the world. We need and entirely new system.

       
  29. As a Citizen of this Community, never accepting being Subject to a Sovereign or being a Customer of its Government, I approve this draft plan of its People for its Future.

     
    • Great. Anarchists. Just what we need.

       
      • Indeed they are – how perceptive of you to notice! Anarchists have lots of experience in organising direct action and cooperative forms of organisation, which I’m sure will be really useful as part of the diversity of views & skils contributing to OccupyLSX.

         
        • I sympathise with these protests. But your precious Anarchists would love nothing better than to kill people like myself.
          Maybe some of us actually care about our country? Did you ever think of that? Maybe some of us enjoy our civilisation and culture and don’t just want every social convention to be thrown out?
          I have nothing but contempt for them, because they have nothing but contempt for me and my traditions and beliefs.
          When they start giving a shit about us, I’ll change my tune, but until then I’ll happily wallow in their illogical hatred towards me.

           
          • Anarchists stand for liberty, equality and solidarity – nothing in there about wanting to kill trolls such as yourself, my friend!

            http://infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionA2

             
          • there are violent ‘anarchists’ – (often just thugs) – and there peaceful anarchists – take Gandhi, for example, or Leo Tolstoy

             
          • Also there are many different creeds to anarchism – don’t assume that they all want to just destroy everything.

             
      • Come on, join the debate properly, you know you want to!

         
        • I am debating. But as something of a Monarchist, you saying things like ‘I never accept being subject to a Soverign’ just rubs me the wrong way.
          Are you an Anarchist? Or just a Republican? You see, I see the Monarchy as being tied in with our identity as a nation. Republics are bland, boring little places which traded individuality for fairness.
          Call me insane, but a little pomp and ceremony is a good thing.

          I wouldn’t mind if we simply elected our Kings and Queens, had them serve the function of Prime Minister whilst being draped in the trappings of regal authority. But having every country with a President and some bland, inoffensive government depresses me.

          Nothing is more distasteful to me than Globalism. Every nation and people has a fundemental right to their own identityt and culture. Robbing them of this is an evil thing to do.

           
        • Och, I have no contempt for you; I admire you because you’re here, engaging in a conversation with other people who care about our society and the human values that should underpin it. I wouldn’t harm a hair on your head, but that doesn’t mean I won’t try to reassert the principle that the People should be Sovereign in a Democracy and that it’s that which defines us more than the traditions imposed by the wealthy few that write popular history.

           
          • I’m a Republican in the sense that I don’t acknowledge the superiority of the aristocracy or the monarchy, Commodus. (Charles Windsor made me wait three and a half hours to see the Tutankhamun Exhibition at the British Museum in 1972 so he could have his own guided tour, so I missed the first half of Stafford Rangers’ FA Trophy Final game against Barnet.)

             
          • well put stu!

             
          • Those traditions are good. They deserve to be maintained. SO much of this modern mentality is based around ‘equality’, to the point where it is completely souless and empty, it means nothing.
            I don’t know, I believe that the drive for success and betterment is what makes humanity so spectacular. History is the story of great men rising above their peers.
            But nowadays, we are hobbled by those who want everything to be fair.

            I tell you, when you govern at the whim of the people, you must contend with a foul melting pot of pigs, parasites and self loathing masochists. The George Galloways and Nick Griffins of the world. No perfect society will ever be reached because the people are too weak to reach perfection and too indecisive to understand when their goal is at hand.

            So many people just want to destroy even though they have no concept of what will replace the old order.

            Our traditions, ideas and history must always be cherished, they must always guide us. Guide, but not enslave.
            There’s a big difference, is there not?

             
          • Well, I agree that there’s value in tradition and history, so the issue between us seems to be whether we read that from the point of view of the privileged or the masses. I suppose I’m moved more by Robert Tressell than Evelyn Waugh.

             
  30. The occupation has already been questioned on its solidarity with (a) women and (b) disabled people — see http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2011/10/we_are_the_49 — let’s hope statement #2 isn’t just words and is being backed up by both actions & organisational structures?
    It’s worth demonstrating this really clearly to counter people’s misgivings – I hope to see this in coming days/weeks.

     
  31. I think you need to publish

    (a) details of exactly how this statement was arrived at, and amongst whom;

    (b) the point that this doesn’t necessarily represent the position of everyone attending, which was what the Wall Street lot, quite sensibly, did.

     
    • I agree with you Ordinal. For example, I’m undecided on whether the cuts are inevitable and I don’t agree with the strike.

      I’m worried about the whole thing being hijacked by socialists, and the socialist worker newspaper. I think it’s important that the movement remains diverse and mainstream.

       
  32. I think we need to address politics.

    We vote once every 5 years or so and then they do what they like. We need to find a way of letting people have a say in decisions, because the politicians seem to pay more attention to people who donate to their party.

    Otherwise we will always depend on politicians to impose the changes we demand.

     
  33. freedom of movement…. noone is illegal!

     
    • Actually, they are. Unregulated populations will only stretch resources and lead to more inequality. People who want limitless immigration caused so many problems in this country. Your bleeding heart caused so many working class people to sympathise with the BNP, National Front, EDL, etc.
      Hold on to your heritage and allow immigrants to assimilate into the country. I believe that with all my heart.
      But just opening the floodgates is masochistic in the extreme.

       
      • I don’t agree. Economists call the notion that an “unregulated” population will stretch resources the Tragedy of the Commons. Garrett Hardin came up with the idea in the 1960s. (Until then, anyone who had heard of him knew him as the guy who wanted genetically defective people forcibly sterilised.)

        But actually, we have plenty of examples of people limiting their use of resources sensibly, without needing an ubermensch to point a gun at them.

        See this article for more information: http://p2pfoundation.net/Refutation_of_the_Tragedy_of_the_Commons

        Speaking as a person born in the UK and living in a house in which recent immigrants make up the majority, I can tell you that I feel proud to find myself surrounded by some of the most hard-working and straightforward people I have ever come across. I don’t think immigration has caused any problem: I think failures in our benefits system might have.

         
  34. To survive, Every human needs FRESH WATER .. FRESH FOOD .. MEDICINE … ELECTRICITY … SHELTER . … surely these must be core demands .. that MUST be met.

    Other needs can be defined with a “systems approach” to distribute the Earth’s RESOURCES economically, fairly and most of all INTELLIGENTLY..

    The age of money has past.

     
  35. I completely agree also that there needs to be a legal reckoning and sanction for those that caused this crisis…The top banking execs, the ratings agencies, the top level quants, the legislators that deregulated banking and financial services sector all of them. It is a monumental scandal and injustice that has been committed and people are rightly disgusted and angry and feel humiliated. It was nothing less than a financial coup d’etat…It will develop objectives and leaders in time but something profound is going on and I feel that this is just the start. The current crisis of public and private debt, of unimaginable wealth for the few in the midst of falling incomes and economic insecurity for the many, springs directly from the 2008 financial crisis and the decades of deregulation and neoliberal orthodoxy that led us here. Massive injections of public money three years ago saved the system without fixing it. A financial crisis was transformed, through bailouts, into a crisis of sovereign debt. That sovereign debt crisis is now leaking back into the financial system. Financial collapse threatens further bailouts. Public and private debt crises are intertwined. Austerity measures are unable to break the deadlock, and in fact can only accelerate a downward economic spiral. New ways of thinking about the economy are urgently needed, that challenge the primacy of financial markets and debt-fuelled growth. In terms of specifics though this would be a good start: 1. Break up the monopolies. The so-called “Too Big to Fail” financial companies – now sometimes called by the more accurate term “Systemically Dangerous Institutions” – are a direct threat to national security. They are above the law and above market consequence, making them more dangerous and unaccountable than a thousand mafias combined. There are about 20 such firms in America, and they need to be dismantled; a good start would be to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and mandate the separation of insurance companies, investment banks and commercial banks.

    2. Pay for your own bailouts. A tax of 0.1 percent on all trades of stocks and bonds and a 0.01 percent tax on all trades of derivatives would generate enough revenue to pay us back for the bailouts, and still have plenty left over to fight the deficits the banks claim to be so worried about. It would also deter the endless chase for instant profits through computerized insider-trading schemes like High Frequency Trading, and force Wall Street to go back to the job it’s supposed to be doing, i.e., making sober investments in job-creating businesses and watching them grow.

    3. No public money for private lobbying. A company that receives a public bailout should not be allowed to use the taxpayer’s own money to lobby against him. You can either suck on the public teat or influence the next presidential race, but you can’t do both. Butt out for once and let the people choose the next president and Congress.

    4. Tax hedge-fund gamblers. For starters, we need an immediate repeal of the preposterous and indefensible carried-interest tax break, which allows hedge-fund titans like Stevie Cohen and John Paulson to pay taxes of only 15 percent on their billions in gambling income, while ordinary Americans pay twice that for teaching kids and putting out fires. I defy any politician to stand up and defend that loophole during an election year.

    5. Change the way bankers get paid. We need new laws preventing Wall Street executives from getting bonuses upfront for deals that might blow up in all of our faces later. It should be: You make a deal today, you get company stock you can redeem two or three years from now. That forces everyone to be invested in his own company’s long-term health – no more Joe Cassanos pocketing multimillion-dollar bonuses for destroying the AIGs of the world….

     
    • I think regulation and reform has and will always fail. The problem IS the system, not the system going wrong. We must strive for an economy based upon common ownership and material need. Everything else is papering over the cracks. Capitalism is a failure.

       
  36. I’m interested in how we can make this movement a truly 99% block.

    What should we say to the 20 million Britons who spend £33 million each and every Saturday night to buy a a chance at becoming part of the 1% ?

     
    • Be moral. Show your patriotism. Claim back love of country and tradition from the far right dogs who have sullied our national conciousness. Talk of a ‘higher purpose’ a ‘higher goal’.
      Why do average people numb their sense with ale or throw their money away on games of chance? Because they lead meaningless lives. Because the government has given them everything save for a purpose.
      BE that purpose. Be their goal, their ambition, their raison d’etre.

      The nation needs direction and guidance. For so long the drive for ‘individual rights’ has descended into a hedonistic desire for fame, fortune and easy gratification.

      You can give them something they desire but don’t have the backbone to create – A reason to live. Next to that, what use are lotteries or talent shows?

      All men live to make a stand, you can emasculate them, wet-nurse them, but deep down they will always yearn to fight and be heard. We must direct and mould these instincts towards the greater good of English society.

       
      • You are Charlie Veitch and I claim my £5

         
        • Pardon me?

           
          • My apologies. I was being jokey with you. That was inappropriate for this website.

            I’m sorry.

             
        • Charlie Veitch would have posted a “seig heil!” at the end of that, or something equally obvious.

           
          • Why does everyone compare me to Hitler? Jesus Christ, I used to get that shit at school, at Sixth Form, even at work! I am not a Nazi. I get compared to him so often it’s not even funny, even people on the internet are doing it. What is it about me? I’m passionate about my country, about my ideals, does that translate into Nazism?

             
          • It must be the moustache.

             
    • If you win, have a party; invite all your mates and neighbours round and when you’re all in a good mood, sit round in a circle and decide what you can do with the cash to help the people who gave it to you; those whose desperate hope, beyond all logic, pays for the whole obscene edifice of the National Lottery.

       
  37. This is great! It’s still a bit too general though. I think it needs to be fleshed out a bit more and we must remember that there should be no room for ‘interpretation’ as we know by now that those to whom we are trying to reach out clearly can’t run things successfully.

    It needs to say something that makes it clear that those who are making the decisions should be subject to regulation by us, the public! They are working with us, we are not working for them. Therefore, just as I would lose my job or face consequences if I was incompetent to do my job, they should be subject to the same rules (and not just experience this when they get caught). If they can’t do their job, then they will be dismissed and any new employees should be selected by us! This includes leaders of banks, financial institutions, corporations, regulatory bodies, board members as well as the those who work for the government.

     
    • It is too general to be actionable yet, but think about the task this group of individuals in London and around the world have assigned themselves – redesigning the socio-economic systems of the world to make them fairer for everyone. You don’t need to be an economist to appreciate the scale of the challenge, and I certainly wouldn’t want the movement to rush to even articulate exactly what the what the goal is, much less how it should be best achieved.

      They need to take their time to debate the issues thoroughly and let the solution come into focus slowly and naturally as the result of a pure democratic process. Meanwhile, the rest of us who can’t spend our nights in a tent in the city need to help those individuals in any other way that we can by donating stuff and spreading news from the occupation around the Internet.

       
      • Oh absolutely, it’s a mammoth task and totally agree that we need time to debate and let agreements come in naturally for positive change. Maybe I sounded a bit strong, so, my apologies 🙂

        It is incredibly exciting to be part of all of this and see what the future will bring 🙂

         
      • Much research has taken place into steady-state & ecological economics, Herman Daly for example working for 20+ years, Tim Jackson, Steve Keen. And here’s a useful essay published last month: Radical Implications of a Zero Growth Economy – P2P Foundation http://bit.ly/orjVmH

         
  38. Can offers of how a sustainable economic community can reached, for example, Distributism…If, and it is an if, communication can be established after protesting then to propose something that could work might be an economic restructuring around ‘distributionism’…I hasten to add that I do not have any religious leaning what so ever, but the principles surrounding the theory are a mix of capitalism and socialism but with social responsibility…

     
  39. may I suggest, that a proposal be put before the peoples assembly by someone for me, that we will not accept the government mandate that people with long term illness and disability be subjected to demeaning private medical tests by flawed computer tick box system by a private global corporation who are paid millions each year to throw people off their benefits when they cannot hold down full time work due to their health – These people are been oppreseed and subjected to homelessness, left without money for food and heating, thrown into debt then harassed by the banks and the corporations bu bailiffs and overdraft charges, and they are now been subjected by chris greyling to the prospect of losing their right of appeal before tribunal courts to fight atos medical decisisons and dwp sanctions. They will be the only group in our society, NOT ALLOWED by our government, access to tribunal hearings to defend themselves. Many are committing suicide, many are dieing as a result of the sanctions, many are bed blocking admitted for malnutrician and hyperthermia – WE MUST STOP THIS, we the people

     
  40. This statement is a really good start. Realistically, capitalism will be here. But we need a fairer, more equal version – a Scandinavian or Japanese version, rather than the rapacious, venal system we have now. There will (and should) always be people who earn more than others, but the obscene inequalities of the current system cause a host of problems.

    Good luck to you all – and if you can get a million people to write to their MPs: you’ll see things starting to change.

     
    • I disagree. Accepting capitalism as the only way is why we are so imprisoned by it. We MUST work towards an alternative based upon common ownership and material need, not profit. The movement will become nothing if don;t strive for real change. Everything else will be co-option by the elites. keep hope.

       
      • Well, Mike,I think overthrowing capitalism is going a bit too far too fast.
        Lets keep it logical.

         
  41. We can no longer accept a system that isn’t perfect. Capitalism is built on debt and cannot survive without debt but debt is no longer an acceptable way to run an economy. Face the facts and act upon those facts.

     
  42. Action without vision is a nightmare. Now we have a vision – Thank you;-) I’m going to paste your manifesto on my blog (hope thats ok?).

     
  43. Except for point 6, which is a whole bunch of separate issues, I agree.

     
  44. Number 7 is the most interesting and what we should work towards with no compromise. It hints (and indeed should state boldly) that capitalism itself is the problem. Structural change must demand that resources are commonly held and distributed according to need of people not profit.

    Only this (not regulators, bankers or anything else) will bring change. Pursue this and you will have a movement. If you focus on tax, regulation, banks you will be reformist and the movement will be co-opted and die before it has begun.

    Well done to everyone there. Keep it up! Solidarity

     
  45. it’s all very vague. Who are “the global oppressed” and what is “tax injustice”?

    Who do you want to make the changes? The government or private corporations? If so, how are you going to make them do that?
    Or would you advocate Direct Democracy (I sincerely hope so).

    No offence, but this statement is TOO simple and vague.

    For practical means, please browse http://infoshop.org

     
  46. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) is a very good plan.
    There are of course hundreds of things that need changing, but, try to tackle them all at once and you will lose your way.
    KISS.
    ..and a bit resounding congrats for starting the process.

     
  47. Congratulations on occupying!

    Your statement is shaping up well, although in my opinion some of the alternatives you propose are not quite attacking the root of the problem: fairer taxation and stopping cuts would still maintain a broken system and therefore only be papering over cracks.

    My major concern, though, is about point 2: “We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities dis/abilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.”

    It is commendable that you have people present from all walks of life, but the biggest hurdle now is to make Occupy London a safe space for these people. Too often, occupation-based movements fall prey to reflecting the prejudices in a corrupt system. It is therefore imperative that you commit towards making the voices of the oppressed and vulnerable heard: the women, the disabled, people from ethnic minorities, youths and the elderly, queer people–too often, even in a well meaning occupation, these people are silenced by the privileged majority. In order to build the better world that you seek, it is utterly necessary that you address these issues within your own movement.

    In point 7, you say “We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.” Here, you are talking only of unfair wealth distribution. I believe that you should add to this point, or point 2 above, that you also aim to address other forms of oppression: capitalism is not the only oppressive force which harms people.

    I am concerned that you are already travelling in the direction of excluding marginalised voices from your movement. Mere hours after the occupation began, you gave platform to Julian Assange. Other women have expressed concerns about this: we are not comfortable with a man who has not been cleared from rape charges being warmly invited and adulated into the movement.

    Please do not dismiss these concerns, and please distance yourselves from Assange. Concerns about giving a platform to a suspected rapist are legitimate, and to dismiss these concerns will make many feel unwelcome from a movement which reflects the same prejudices as the rest of society.

    You have a golden opportunity here to be part of lasting change. Don’t let yourselves become oppressors.

     
  48. How about adding one for the Government to put an alternative fuel infrastructure into place to reduce our dependency on oil. With modern technology, there is many other viable energy/fuel resources which they’ve chosen to dumb down due to the impact it would have on fuel taxes. Place cost effective incentives for the public and business sectors to convert to alternate fuels. The main issue would be to reduce our dependency on Oil giants who are profiteering on a very limited resource. Why not buy the remaining Oil needs directly from the supplying countries and create wealth for their economies too rather than feed the fat cats.

     
  49. I like the notion that we have to start afresh and that the system is not sustainable. That’s on the right path. I would like to point out that we should look forward to a POST-SCARCITY society where money or barter are no longer relevant. We live in the 21st century yet we are thinking with outdated values. Please read through the wiki and sources regarding how a post-scarcity society is possible:
    http://www.adciv.org

    Working in the same direction there’s a social movement called The Zeitgeist Movement: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

     
  50. You’re getting lots of responses! the Dean and Chapter of the Cathedral have put up with you on their frontage, so be nice to them, and the statue of Queen Anne. In a way, you are at the wrong end of the Cathedral. If you go all the way to the other end of the Paul’s Churchyard, you will find, marked in a circle of stone on the ground, the actual site of Paul’s Cross, the traditional location where the Folkmoot was summoned by general consent in times of need, more than a thousand years ago. I suggest that you secure the tacit agreement of the Cathedral authorities to maintain a presence there, as and when they become minded to ask you to move from the front. The place has its own magic, which will give you strength to deal fairly with all who approach you.

     
  51. what a farce you are creating, jokers one and all…

     
  52. The problem is, people are angry at what our rulers are doing to us, and instead of removing the rulers and doing it for ourselves, people are asking for more rulers and more government.

    This is counter-intuitive.

    The occupy movement seems to be about asking for change -asking the same people who created and maintain the current situation to suddenly change their minds.

    That is just not gonna happen. No matter how many people start camping out.

    A real occupation has to challenge the system, has to throw a spanner in the works and MAKE them stop. It has to be part of a wider movement…
    http://infoshop.org

     
    • I haven’t looked at your link goatface, but your comments are spot on.

       
  53. Your manifesto only speaks on behalf of those of the 99% who are inclined towards a socialist, interventionist, re-distributive government. What about the rest of the 99% who are not?

     
    • Agreed. Finally some sense.

       
  54. That wider movement has to be something that takes place in workplaces, communities and institutions across the country, at a local level. It has to be more than just a symbolic coming together, a sentimental camp with a few sing-a-longs about ‘nasty Tories’.
    Instead, let us come together to make real, practical decisions and take action. If we want a better society, then let us take this one and mold it according to the will of the people. Direct democracy is possible, but only if we stop pissing about and make it happen.

    Occupy the stock exchange, occupy Westminister, but fuck off with camping outside churches.

     
    • Largely agree: saying that direct democracy is the answer is not enough unless there is a viable transition plan.

      We have a registered party in the UK that would implement DD if elected (http://www.paparty.co.uk/) – would it be worth speaking with them to see if there is any scope for collaboration?

       
  55. But human beings don’t speak with one voice. If half the 99 ride roughshod over the values of the other half how is that morally any better than what the 1% do?
    It’s not a good start.

     
  56. There’s adverts on tv saying 60p can save a child’s life. We should CAP personal wealth at say a conservative 3 million pounds, on a global level, and make sure all the kids are sorted before we even think about doing anything else.
    And have a free festival at Stonehenge June 1st 2012, loads of free festivals where people can camp and talk and be creative. And vote on every issue which interests us, on a system like facebook- which started the Egyptian revolution so can’t be all bad. And withdraw support from our mercenaries fighting Libya, Aphghanistan and others for the increased wealth of the 1 percent.

     
  57. It was great to be there on Saturday, I guess I’m one of the lucky ones who still has a job at the moment, although sadly this stops me been as active in these protests as I’d like to be. I met some really energetic, inspiring people out there, I can’t wait to participate again and seeing Julian Assange made my day 🙂
    I agree 100% with the statement above, the system must change and the problems that are occurring won’t go away if left to our governments to solve. We the people must bring about change, it affects our future and the future of our generations.
    There have been too many lies and cover ups, too much corruption, greed and inhumanity in this world. The power lies with the people, united together we can make changes across the globe. We can put a stop to the misery, the suffering, the needless death, squalor and homelessness if our taxes are used for the right purpose. I appose war, I appose violence, I appose the unjust treatment of the 99%
    This has to stop !!!!
    Keep up the good work, see you soon…..

     
  58. Lovin’ your direction @occupylondon !!!

    We are the 99%.

    Feel free to make contact with us at –
    http://www.occupysydney.com.au

    WE WILL REMAIN FIRM and FOCUSED!!

     
  59. The BBC call you anti capitalists. Actually you are pro capitalist except the points up there about the cuts and global equality. First the ‘cuts’ are mild. Look at the figures rather than the Mirror headlines. Why are there 7 million in the public sector? if you keep that it you will be taken over the by the trades union who SUPPORT THE CURRENT SYSTEM!!! 2nd, global equality is idiotic.

    KEEP IT SIMPLE. REDUCE THE ‘DEMANDS’ TO ONE: #BANBANKBAILOUTS. YOU WILL GET HUGE SUPPORT FOR THAT AND YOU MAY CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

     
  60. I think one objective should be that the whole global banking and financial system be analysed and redesigned to work in favour of all and avoid abuses of power. The endemic financial criminality is a tricky one. We live in a world where powerful people and organizations can be above the law – that must stop. We should keep the movement as positive as possible, I guess it’s an issue down the road after we create structural change.

     
  61. Please stop using democracy! Democracy is by definition wrong, democracy means that 51 people out of 100 can cancel all the opinions of the other 49. It is a system that is just as injust as the corporations themselves!! We need a better system than this, where the rule of the sheeps is law!

     
    • I agree with this very strongly. Progress does not come down the barrel of a gun, not even when 51 people you like have got hold of it, and have started fighting over who to rob, and who to shoot, first.

       
  62. We’re missing the woods for the trees here in point 1. What’s needed is a definitive rejection of the INFINITE GROWTH MONETARY PARADIGM. Infinite growth is not possible on a finite planet. We need to move to an economy that doesn’t rely on year-on-year exponential growth, however our debt based monetary system prevents this.

     
  63. Very good initial statement. Well done to those who drew up the first draft, those who put forward amendments and everyone who voted for it.

     
  64. WEALTH TAX :

    The total personal wealth in the UK is £9,000bn, a sum that dwarfs the national debt. It is mostly concentrated at the top, so the richest 10% own £4,000bn, with an average per household of £4m. The bottom half of our society own just 9%. A one-off tax of just 20% on the wealth of this group would pay the national debt!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/15/deficit-crisis-tax-the-rich

     
    • Entry into the top 10% of wealth holders is £176,000. Most of that would be in the increase in housing prices over the last decade.

      If they were made to pay 20% and couldn’t get increased mortgages because their incomes don’t match the new value of their houses, they would have to sell.

      But such a large number of houses on the market would crash housing prices and wipe out a lot of the paper value. It wouldn’t achieve anything.

       
      • If you read the proposal by
        Greg Philo you see that they don’t have to pay it in one go rather they assume liability for the debt…..

        “A major positive for this scheme is that the tax would not have to be immediately paid. The richest 10% have only to assume liability for their small part of the debt. They can pay a low rate of interest on it and if they wish make it a charge on their property when they die. It would be akin to a student loan for the rich.”

         
        • What happens if housing prices go down and they go into negative equity? Do they get the tax they paid back?

           
          • No the tax is levied in year 1. But they can choose to differ payment if they don’t want to pay it all off in one go.

            (with delicious irony) It is essentially securitising the national debt against the assets and ability to pay of the richest 10%. Thus it is much like a mortgage backed security except this time it is SUPER PRIME rather than Sub prime.

            Since the top 10% own 40% of assets and have significant income from investments and a NET asset value of about £1 million we could easily cover the debt with even with asset prices half-ing. The chance of default is very low.

            …..I would give them a AAA rating.

             
        • Oh one thing I forgot to mention was that if coupled to either a tax cut for the poor or public spending the tax would be stimulative since the marginal propensity to spend is low for rich people.

           
          • It makes no sense. So, you’re going to tax someone that can’t really afford it (because they’re only there due to house price inflation.) You’ll tax them on the market value of their house at a point in time even though at a later point in time it might be worth much less. You’ll keep them on the hook for the tax for some theoretical paper money that never really existed. You don’t see anything wrong with that?

            What about two people that have earned the same salary their whole lives. One person lived the good life, dining out and travelling and buying lots of stuff and the other lived frugally and saved all their money. Why do you want to punish the saver?

             
    • Good point. And what is the asset that the wealthy own the most of?

      Its an asset that is not taxed. This is why no matter how much you tax wealth, the tax will be avoided.

      See here for more detail:

      http://gco2e.blogspot.com/2011/09/why-is-it-hard-to-tax-wealthy.html

       
      • You know Chazza if you live in a £4 million house with no outstanding mortgage and you cannot pay tax ?

        Poor widow bogey redux….

        The PEOPLE’S RIGHTS
        LAND PRICE AS A CAUSE OF POVERTY
        By the Right Hon.
        Winston Spencer Churchill, M.P.
        President of the Board of Trade
        1909

        http://homepage.ntlworld.com/janusg/chrchl.htm

         
        • The yearly tax bill would equate to 0.2*0.04 = 0.8% of your wealth per year which you earned through one of:

          *Inheritance.
          *Lottery win
          *Massive asset appreciation due to credit expansion fueling a house price bubble
          *Your job as a city banker
          *Your job as CEO of a large corporation
          * Your job as a bank robber
          * Your job as a drug dealer
          *Your job as a surgeon/judge
          *Running your own business

          But today you are unemployed or retired with no pension – and because you are rich you are not a work shy unemployed lay – about but rather a person who deserves to enjoy the fruits of their labour without having to sell your assets…..and yet despite all your genius and hard work in building up your asset base you are unable to sweat it to obtain the smallest of returns. … perhaps you could rent out some of your rooms? or move somewhere smaller … or differ payment until you die and have it taken off the inheritance?

           
          • Where does £4 million come from??? Entry into the top 10% is a mere £176,000.

             
  65. This is all good and well, but every one of us with any sort of credit/ unpaid debt is part of the problem. In this society of instant gratification, ‘buy now pay later’, we have created the current problem.
    That millions of people are greedy with their pounds lets banks become greedy with our millions.

    For things to change, each one of us in society needs to take responsibility for our own actions, making sure that each of our own houses are in order, and living within our means, before blaming the elected government.
    Our governments are far from perfect, but then so are we.

    It is no good demanding a change, with no constructive suggestions with regards how to achieve it.

    Kx

     
    • Agree. Makes sense but many on this website are blind to the their own faults that they like to blame others rather than look at themselves. I am sure none of the above were complaining when they had it good on a false credit living life.

       
    • I strongly agree with you that we should take responsibility for our own lives, but I think this risks leaving a couple of points undiscussed: the extent to which the ruling elite controlled people’s opinions about debt, and the extent to which personal debt compared to other factors contributed to the current recession.

      The elites encouraged people to take on debt. At the time this happened, we had nothing like the level of many-to-many communication we now enjoy: the elites formed public opinion, even more so than they still do. Relatively few people learn much economics in school. Relatively few people found economics sufficiently interesting that they gained the ability to predict the current collapse.

      I think we CAN place blame on our elected governments for the current economic problem. We get to pick, twice a decade, between two very similar options, carefully selected by those in power, with the understanding that many manifesto promises will go ignored, no matter which party ends up getting to tell us what to do. The powerful and the wealthy, not the average person, truly dictates government policy. It does not matter what marks we put on our ballots twice a decade.

      Secondly, many other factors led to the impoverishment of our economy, such as the inflationary printing of a state-monopolized currency, central banking, corporation law allowing organizations to grow far beyond what we could sustain without government force propping them up (thus creating the too-big-to-fail banks).

      Sure we can blame people for succumbing to temptation, but we should also blame the people who put the devils there to do the tempting.

       
  66. Be very careful about pursuing the rich for their money because they will move elswhere, and most of us have jobs because of those wealthy people and their spending habits. Over-tax the rich and we will be left with a country full of ‘entitled idles’ living on the dole, pensioners who have paid their dues and a handful of workers to support ALL of it.

    I believe that all should pay equal taxes, with a few exceptions:
    1. Tax credits would be given to those earning below the breadline.
    2. Holiday houses, second homes etc that are uninhabited for x time, should be taxed.
    3. Foreigners should be restricted in the owning of property, like on other islands, where locals own most and only a small percentage of land is owned by foreigners, and out-pricing locals.
    4. Basic necessities like all unprocessed fruit and veg, dairy, meat, flour and other basic ingredients, and basic baby and female necessities eg sanitary towels etc should not be taxed.
    5. All processed food should be taxed in increasing amounts, from a pre-packed sandwich to ready meals, to cakes and sweets etc.
    6. Government ministers etc to be entitled to pensions earned while in office only, not for life, and those pensions would be on the same scale as all other government employees such as council workers and NHS staff.

    Just a few suggestions…

     
  67. 3. Was meant to say that
    Foreigners should be restricted in the owning of property, like on other islands, where locals own most and only a small percentage of land is owned by foreigners, and so avoiding out-pricing locals.

     
  68. Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not a basic right to own your home/property. Just that one is housed. Owning property is a luxury not a necessity.

     
    • I slightly disagree with this. The monopolization of land by a small segment of the population has greatly increased our cost of living, and has made this recession a much worse experience for people.

      Planning permission and the green belt have pushed up house prices far beyond what we would pay on a free market, leading to the massive and unpayable mortgages that in part caused this recession. It has similarly pushed up rent.

      I agree that people should not own a home as their right, but on the other hand, I think we should tackle the root of the problem, and address the government interference, done in the interests of the already-wealthy, that has made property in the UK so expensive to start with. Roll back the restrictions, watch the house prices fall, and watch the wealth of the poorer grow as they can afford to save and buy things, instead of work to pay the rent.

       
  69. how can we “away from” london protest add our suggestions to the statement?

     
  70. It would behoove the UK to take steps to increase self-sufficiency, so that we are not in the position where foods and services can be withheld to force us to comply with other countries demands.
    We need to stop living on the ghost of a past empire, and face up to the fact that we are a group of small islands.
    Then each of us need to help figure out how to increase our national income by exporting stuff/ providing services.

    Singapore is a fantastic example:
    It is a tiny piece of land, but owns oil refineries etc and has a national reserve the exceeds that of Switzerland.
    Instead of ASBOs, they whip minor offenders. There would be less crime if offenders knew they would have a hiding rather than a certificate, and it would be cheaper!

    We could implement an immigration policy like Australia, where immigrants all sign that they will not be entitled to any benefits for 10 years, and have to prove that they have a certain bank balance.. It is quite amazing to see how quickly people find work when there are no hand-outs.

    Refugees and other unemployed, should be given work to earn their benefits. For example 37.5 hours over 4 days, allowing 3 days free to rest and find better/ other employment. They should live in house/ flat-shares/communes.
    I work full time and can’t afford to rent my own place, and don’t understand why my taxes go towards providing those on benefits with better accommodation options. Not to mention those earning enough benefits to pay for Degree education.

    There should be a limit put on pay-outs when NHS is sued. Like in New Zealand, responsible offenders are disciplined and then the injured party is provided free services/ support to compensate whatever was lost. This would prevent people suing for any reason so that they could pay off their mortgages…

    Free NHS services should be for citizens and emergency treatments. Things like cosmetic surgery as opposed to reconstructive surgery should not be free, no should services like IVF. Having children is not a basic right.

    The UK could implement a foreign policy that is the cross between the one Switzerland has and Star Trek. Where we mind our own business.
    Us not getting involved in other countries wars, would save billions.

    I would still like to see Blair and Bush tried for war crimes…

    Enough of that, but you get my drift?

     
    • Or, we could take the example of Hong Kong, which turned itself from a muddy coastline to one of the most prosperous places on the planet, by making itself a free port.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Hong_Kong

      We don’t need to whip people, or deport people we don’t like, or chuck out people who arrived here too recently for our tastes. We just need to stop the already wealthy from using government force to prevent the rest of us from competing with them. Free trade.

      And I agree that scrapping our army, and stopping invading foreign countries, would save a lot of money.

       
  71. Removing the profit motive would only be the beginning of building a new society…where to start?
    http://gu-vangumedia.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-nyoccupy-st-pauls.html

     
  72. to those at the LSX occupation, facts are not going to win the day, we all know the facts, “He who has a why, can endure any how” ( Nietzsche) what we need are to get people to see that certain principles are none negotiable. Like:
    government = war (justifiable or otherwise)
    government = oppression (legal or not)
    government = favours (legal or not)
    government = the problem, not the solution

    never in the history of man has “more” government solved any problem, it has merely added problems, increased costs & made life harder.

    we need to remove government, everything else would solve itself.

     
    • Your statement makes little if any sense. Quoting Nietzsche suggests you are more right wing than left wing. Your attack on the state is bizarre. How do we redistribute from the 1% of parasites without state intervention? Obviously we can’t. That suggests you are not exactly on the side of the 99% who are the victims of the 1%. Or am I missing something?

       
      • Government keeps the 1% the 1%. Government intervention in the market, to protect vested interests, prevents wealth from flowing much more evenly through our society.

        Take, for example, corporation law. Corporations could not exist until governments created them. They require government force to survive, thanks to which they can grow to sizes we would not see in a free market, and as a result of which a very small number of people can accumulate a much greater degree of profit.

        On a free market, that profit would distribute itself much more evenly among a much larger number of smaller companies who trade with each other in order to build up a complex enterprise, which also has the advantage that in the event of one of those companies failing, another can take up the slack rather than requiring massive government bailouts to keep a much larger superstructure afloat.

        Or take the fiat currency and central banking. With competing currencies, printing money cannot happen: people sell what they own in the artificially-inflated currency and move to a more stable store of wealth. The government created the degree of inflation we see around us.

        Indeed, on a free market, prices tend to drop continuously, as people figure out more and more efficient ways of making stuff. We see the reverse because of the amount our government debases the one currency it allows us to use.

         
  73. We should make sure that these protests don’t just come across in the media as simply anti-capitalist – there are many who simply want radical reform of the system. Also this will mean more people will feel able to join the protest.
    This is precisely what we need – we should try to embrace any people who we identify with the slogan WE ARE THE 99%. We should perhaps put off making demands before we have built the movement – one of the main points of the movement is that is an alternative space for open debate and true democratic decision making. WE MUST FIRST FOCUS ON BUILDING THE MOVEMENT.

     
    • correction to above to avoid misinterpretation:
      we should try to embrace any people who we identify with the slogan WE ARE THE 99%.
      SHOULD BE:
      we should try to embrace any people who themselves identify with the slogan WE ARE THE 99%.

       
    • Agreed totally with your approach.

       
  74. This is excellent news. A large number of people in dialogue. Points 1, 4 and 7 I like a lot.

    Apologies for not being at the debate. Is there anything we have missed? We seem to know we are being fleeced for sure. We know from which direction the fleecers come. But this list is incomplete in showing exactly how we are being fleeced and who in the end is doing the fleecing. May I ask OccupyLSX to consider the following.

    Imagine that banks are the modern day aristocratic landlords
    They own most of our land through mortgage assets, 75%
    They do not collect mortgage interest, they collect RENT
    They did no work, nor created any wealth in that process
    THIS is how we are being fleeced

    Then, who asks for these mortgages, this debt? Home owners perhaps? About 10 million homes (50%) are mortgaged. The owners expecting to keep the unearned income in rising house prices. Someone else must have earned that increase. It does not grow on trees. Is that robbery too?

    So is it just the banks? In this global pyramid selling scheme that always collapses.

    I’ll be popping up a tent tomorrow lunchtime called Real Reform. Please stop by and I’ll explain more fully. Until then find more detail here

    http://gco2e.blogspot.com/2011/10/st-pauls-protests-who-is-fleecing-us.html

     
  75. To build the movement you need to know what movement you want to build. The list of principles/demands is very good. Exactly the right balance. Dumping them for a slogan of we are the 99% is pointless. Who are the 99%? Who exactly is being excluded? The bottom 1%, dismissed by Cameron and Miliband as lumpenproletarian, leeching off hardworking taxpayers like Miliband and Cameron. Or are the99% the wage slaves, their families, dependants, and middle class elements threatened by capitalism’s global crisis? If so, the #OccupyLSX statement is excellent in pointing the way forward. A work in progress? Certainly. But an excellent start.

     
  76. To me these protests carry the air of a spoiled child throwing a tantrum because his brother has a more expensive toy than him.

    This 99% figure is bandied about a lot but 99% of what? It seems to me that it is 99% of the developed West and certainly not the world. The real 99% are those starving in Africa, living in slums in India or working sweatshops in China; it’s hard to feel sympathy for those in this country or other western democracies when their standard of living, even in these trying times, is the envy of the real 99% out there who don’t know about these protests because they can’t afford a blackberry or 24mb broadband.

    Someone earlier said this;

    “It’s not about comparing what we have to people with millions, this is about those people, who are already super-rich, wanting MORE and wanting to take it from us.”

    But I question how we are any different to those “super-rich”, aren’t these protests essentially about demanding more? And where do we get our wealth from? Where were the components for your computer made, or your clothes, where does your food come from? Almost certainly they came from countries where wealth, and any other indicator of standard of living, is much lower than what we enjoy here. Our real wealth, the material things we use and enjoy come from the sweat of those much worse off than ourselves.

    So can any of us really claim moral superiority here? Perhaps it’s a matter of scale, surely someone earning millions has more of a responsibility than someone earning thousands but to that I’d ask is it any better to withhold a loaf of bread from a starving man than a banquet when you could adequately spare either?

    In this country we have free healthcare; free education up to the age of 18 and subsidised education for those over 18; there are a raft of benefits to be claimed by those who find themselves in trouble; we have reliable emergency services to keep us safe; even some of life’s luxuries are provided to some for free or at subsidised rates (for example television licenses for the elderly).

    I’m not suggesting that everything is fine, I wouldn’t say that but I am sceptical of a movement that claims to be for the people but seems to ignore everyone outside of the boarders of the EU or NAFTA.

    It borders on the grotesque to call yourself the 99% when in reality you are still in the top 1% of that 99.

    The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

     
    • Well said.

      It’s also worth pointing out that in the US, where this movement started, they don’t have universal health care or subsidised tertiary education. They also have a government that is far more controlled by lobbyists and is far slower and more bureaucratic to get things done.

      We should realise how lucky we are.

       
      • Sorry to disappoint you but Aliens will not start invading Earth in Washington. This movement did not started in US, a exactly same movement (with same tactics, including that silence-clap or the human-loud-speakers) started in Spain in May 15th. search #acampadasol. Of course Egypt Tahir square inspired the spaniard movement.

        However it is not important from where we come, but where we go. But please, try to break your US centered vision of the world, that is a part of the problem we are facing.

         
  77. A great 1st statement! Your starting point – ‘the current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust’ – is dead right. The system – political, economic and financial – is the problem, not the solution.
    The focus is, or should be, entirely on changing the system and not appealing to existing power and governments to do what they can’t/won’t do. However, point 5 about wanting the regulators to regulate properly and part of point 8 about urging governments to stop oppressing, tends towards a reform of the status quo when, imo, it is beyond reform.
    A way forward could be through People’s Assemblies as a transition to a new, real democracy. Here’s a view on what PAs could be:
    http://www.aworldtowin.net/frontline/PAfuturedemocracy.html
    There’s an open event about People’s Assemblies to People’s Power on Saturday, the 22nd at which Occupy LSX is invited to speak. More info here:
    http://www.aworldtowin.net/about/eventOc2211.html

     
  78. Spot on with this write-up, I really suppose this web site needs much more consideration. I’ll probably be once more to read much more, thanks for that info.

     
  79. Hi guys,

    may I suggest to get rid of the term “ethnicities” at point 2 and replace it with “people”? So it would be: “We are people of all backgrounds, genders, sexualities…” I am suggesting this because I don’t believe at all that ethnicities as races exist. If someone asks me what my ethnicities is, as the UK Census as well as other Nation-State institutions do, I simply laugh as that question is non-sense to me. In this country, instead, I see that it is a category very seriously taken into consideration by the public. Journalists and State agencies are indeed claiming that in a very near future the “mixed-race” will be the largest “ethnic minority” in the UK – are you with me in seeing the absurdity of such a view? I believe therefore that we shouldn’t support the use of such a very dangerous term – it is a term too much attached to the imperial strategy of “divide and conquer”. We should instead take advantage of the fact that this is a global movement and claim, with the word “people”, that we are One: One Love, One World, One People!

     
  80. Please get yourselves down to Dale Farm asap to help with the barricades!

     
  81. You don’t have to be a Marxist to see that the capitalist system isn’t working, ask the 99% protest

     
  82. European Conference Against Austerity, Privatisation & in defence of the Welfare State

    The fightback against the austerity packages across the countries of Europe and in Britain is starting to build up and the European Conference Against Austerity, Privatisation and in defence of the Welfare State on Saturday the 1st of October brought together representatives from almost every European country. What we are witnessing isn’t a return to the 1980’s but an attempt by the Tory/Liberal coalition government, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund to reassert capitalist class power in the manner of the 1930’s and if that requires the recession becoming a depression even greater than that of the 1930’s that’s what the leaders of global, European and the British and other national governments will oversee to put the working classes back in what they see as our rightful place. Will the British Left parties be engaging in the class struggle in the way the Communist Party did in the 1930’s? Andy Bain, Steve Johnson and Andy Chaffer were of the Communist Party of Britain were at the conference called by Pierre Laurent National Secretary of the French Communist Party and President of the European Left Group and the CPB has representatives sitting on the national council and steering group of Coalition of Resistance which all British Left parties should be involved in. This is a real opportunity for the Left and the people of Britain to draw a line on the neo-liberal and neo-conservative project and defend the gains made by communists, socialists and social-democrats over the 20th century.

    http://www.europeagainstausterity.org/

     
  83. Was the European Conference Against Austerity & Privatisation& in defence of the Welfare State a positive initiative and if so how do we build on this and fightback against the neo-liberal economic policies of privatization and neo-conservative authoritarian state?

     
  84.  
  85. Occupy The Bank of England

    The unelected governor who has no democratic accountability has overseen a policy of rampant inflation. Prices are out of control because of all the money he has pumped into the system that has by and large gone to the banks. The result is our money which we earn is worth less!

     
  86. Isn’t the whole point of the “global occupy” & “99% movements” that they represent the vast majority against the tiny elite who have rigged the system. This means from the people on the streets to the working & middle class all the way through to the upper middle. These people are not [yet] ready for radical change they just want to survive. This is what the protests should tap into with a simple message and call to positive action.

    [We cannot afford another crisis.]
    The banking system must be reformed so as to minimise risk.

    [We the ordinary people will not pay while the people who caused the mess continue to profit.]
    The banks and bankers must help pay for the mess they caused.

     
  87. I’d prefer something like this

    [i]We want to see a society which

    Meets the basic needs of all, and enables them to develop their talents and abilities to the full, enriching society and themselves.
    Is free from oppression and exploitation. A world where children are nurtured, nourished and respected, and which values and cares for its older citizens.
    Is pluralist, valuing people from different backgrounds and cultures, celebrating their rich diversity.
    Ensures that its development is ecologically sustainable and takes responsibility for bequeathing a healthier environment to future generations.
    Contributes to the creation of a new global community of co–operation and interdependence which leaves behind poverty, famine, debt, militarism and war.
    But there are those with power, wealth and privilege organised to resist our demands so the key to success is united action.[/i]

     
    • Lovely…. but it needs to appeal to the rasist right wing sun reader who has just been made redundant. Not just the just the People’s Front of Judea. (Monty Python reference to left wing factionalism and competitive radicalism for those who don’t get the reference)

       
  88.  
  89. When will you ‘moderate’ my comment which was posted at 4.42pm on Monday? It’s now 23.07

     
  90. MikeTheSecond

    “To me these protests carry the air of a spoiled child throwing a tantrum because his brother has a more expensive toy than him.

    This 99% figure is bandied about a lot but 99% of what? It seems to me that it is 99% of the developed West and certainly not the world. The real 99% are those starving in Africa, living in slums in India or working sweatshops in China; it’s hard to feel sympathy for those in this country or other western democracies when their standard of living, even in these trying times, is the envy of the real 99% out there who don’t know about these protests because they can’t afford a blackberry or 24mb broadband.”

    I think this is just wrong. I think it is highly likely that these protests will be echoed by people in other parts of the world. Many people in many countries have suffered because of what America does around the world, and many have been reduced to poverty and even starvation at times by the policies of Wall Street. Do people nort think that the fact that people are occupying Wall Street and protesting about this is likely to inspire them to protest and fight back also?

    The same is true in Britain, even though we aren’t as important in the world as America, we are still seen as America’s poodle by lots of people.

    Not only that, but these protests have also taken inspiration from some of the protests, demonstrations and revolutions that have happened in the Arab world.

    Don’t try to divide people protesting here from others who are protesting about the same things. We don’t have different interests from them, we are all in this together and the more unity we can get between those opposing capitalism in the richer countries and those doing the same in poorer ones, the better.

    If we can change things here, we can help things to change elsewhere as well.

     
    • You miss my point.

      These protesters are by and large, in a global sense, part of the 1% (well actually around 2%) with even those more worse off still generally in the top 10%.

      Despite this the main complaints coming from individual people (for example on the 99% tumblr pages) are about personally low standards of living, or rather perceived low standards of living. The general message seems to be “we want more” with no thought about those below them. In other words it appears to me that these people are livid about people having more than them, whether fairly or unfairly, but perfectly indifferent about those who have much less, again fairly or unfairly.

      People in the bottom 90% may well agree with the aims or general rhetoric of the protests but they would have every reason to lump you and me in with those that you are protesting against.

      “we are all in this together”

      We really aren’t, do you really think an Ethiopian with a distended belly or an Indian who picked through a rubbish tip to live would in any way agree that you, someone who has the luxury of internet access, and they are “in it together”?

      Is this any different to a millionaire like David Cameron telling you “we’re all in this together”? I bet you don’t agree with him when he says that, why should a starving African agree with you when you tell it to them?

      Btw what’s your alternative to capitalism?

       
  91. Suggested Additions:

    10. We reject unelected representation in any guise

    11. Elected representatives and Civil Servants will be held accountable for their actions – current and retrospectively. (The higher the position of Trust, the higher the penalty to be paid where breaches of trust are proven)

     
  92. 10. We are willing to give up almost all our material possessions and expectations of health and security since that it the only way these hopes can be realized.

    11. We don’t really understand how the world works, but my making a lot of noise maybe we will get every thing we dream about, regardless of how unrealistic it might be.

     
  93. Am going to try and get down tomorrow with a couple of hundred copies of Matt Taibbi brilliant article on Goldman Sachs (link above) – essential reading !

    THE GREAT AMERICAN BUBBLE MACHINE – By MATT TAIBBI ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE JULY 2009 From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression – and they’re about to do it again

    Bestest and you are all doing a brilliant job keep up the great work.

    Ian

     
  94. Just in case you didn’t see the link was on Ian – here it is in full http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html

     
  95. Does your website have a contact page? I’m having trouble locating it but, I’d like to send you an email. I’ve got some ideas for your blog you might be interested in hearing. Either way, great website and I look forward to seeing it improve over time.

     
  96. A great 1st statement! Your starting point – ‘the current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust’ – is dead right. The system – political, economic and financial – is the problem, not the solution.
    The focus is, or should be, entirely on changing the system and not appealing to existing power and governments to do what they can’t/won’t do. However, point 5 about wanting the regulators to regulate properly and part of point 8 about urging governments to stop oppressing, tends towards a reform of the status quo when, imo, it is beyond reform.
    A way forward could be through People’s Assemblies as a transition to a new, real democracy. Here’s a view on what PAs could be:
    http://www.aworldtowin.net/frontline/PAfuturedemocracy.html
    There’s an open event about People’s Assemblies to People’s Power on Saturday, the 22nd at which Occupy LSX is invited to speak. More info here:
    http://www.aworldtowin.net/about/eventOc2211.html

     
  97. http://www.ticketgenie.com/lady-gaga/Lady-Gaga-Concert-Tickets.html Thanks for that awesome posting. It saved MUCH time 🙂

     
  98. So, people above are calling for violent actions against those who they suppose are oppressing them. Not calling for trials, not calling for a peaceful change, but calling for lynchings, based on a feeling that something is not right.

    If this is how it is going to be, then I hope that you’ll all understand why some of us will not be joining you, and will instead hope that you feel the full force of the law.

     
  99. http://ipod-touch.digiexpress.us/Size-Of-Ipod-Touch-Screen.html Thanks for that awesome posting. It saved MUCH time 🙂

     
  100. Richard, I don’t think appealing to the racist right wing sun reader redundant or not is the answer. It’s true that Lenin argued that Marxists must struggle against “left-wing” communism so that not just a vanguard but the majority of the working classes are won over to socialism. But are we to make the same mistakes as new-labour if we attempt to appeal to fascists.

    Citizen Smith

     
    • True – I don’t actually want us to be racist- It was meant to be provocative.

      However I think we would agree that trying to go too left wing too anti capitalist too quickly will just turn the public off the protests and lead to us being dismissed as irrelevant hippy anti-capitalists.

      [Free market capitalists should be on our side]
      * Don’t say “capitalism is the problem” it may well be ‘a problem’ but what we are seeing is not capitalism but rather a kleptocracy with profits privatised and losses socialised. If we had capitalism the banks would never have been allowed to operate as quasi state backed monopolies.

      [This is about real people who have lost their jobs or who’s quality of life has declined]
      * We should be careful to make sure we represent and are seen to represent “normal people” (note heavy quotation marks) not “alternative people”; professional anarchists, students, hippies ect.
      * It would be better from a PR point of view if everyone wore very conventional “smart” clothes.
      *Make it clear that the conspiracy nuts and “truthers” are nothing to do with the protest.

      [Left vs Right social and personal politics is irrelevant]
      * Don’t dilute the message with fluff about the environment, third world, rasism, sexism etc. Except where it is directly attributable to the banks, speculators or the financial crash. e.g.

       
  101. Please take advantage of the spaniard previous experience (we camped in May 2011 much earlier than OcuppyWallStreet in fact).

    The official system and some people with good (and not so good) goals will ask you to concretize your demands. You will feel that pressure to make concrete declarations, they will blame you of “just protesting but not offering realistic solutions”.

    You should think about it: the main revolution is building public spaces where political issues can be discussed. Spaces outside the control of the elites or the official institutions (influenced deeply by the elites).

    So my recommendation would be to focus in this community building and not in “changing the world in two days”. You will not change the world in two days, as you have not power and reaching power is not so easy (and the status quo will resist any attempt), but you can change the way people make politics.

    In Spain we set up local assemblies to incorporate elderly and people without internet access. We also had some marches from several points of Spain to Madrid getting to the city at the same day and spreading the movement in rural areas (building community).

    And finally but more important: avoid the use of any kind of violence. That is the excuse the status quo is waiting to put you in jail and prevent the movement developing. You can expect some infiltrate groups producing violence (as in Rome), who knows if even policemen trying to do it (there are some videos in Barcelona showing that strategies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlaeabZlF-E ).

     
  102. If we look at Latin America and compare Socialist Cuba with other Central American states, who has the best health care and education or housing and employment for the 99%. And how rich are the 1% of party elite in Cuba compared with the elite in the capitalist states around it. In a developed country like Britain health care, education and housing for 100% of the people is achievable and should be maintained. The neo-liberal economic project supported by a neo-conservative authoritarian state will dismantle the welfare state created in the Keynesian period of welfare capitalism in order that the elite of Britain, Europe and the USA can increase their share of the national and global wealth at the expense of the 99% (British, European, North American as well as the super exploitation of those living in the developing world). The objective is to maintain and improve the wellbeing of the 99% across the whole planet. According to Oxfam and War on Want it’s possible to feed and house everyone on the plant and to provide basic health care and education, it’s the system based on profits from the surplus-value of labour and the planets resources rather than its use-value that the problem.

     
  103. Why isn’t class mentioned anywhere? especially item 2… f**king ridiculous.

     
  104. MikeTheSecond

    “These protesters are by and large, in a global sense, part of the 1% (well actually around 2%) with even those more worse off still generally in the top 10%.”

    “People in the bottom 90% may well agree with the aims or general rhetoric of the protests but they would have every reason to lump you and me in with those that you are protesting against.”

    I disagree. You seem to be saying that the real division is not between the rich and the poor, or between the capitalists and workers, but between the entire population of the richer countries and those who live in poorer countries. To a very large extent, workers in richer countries owe their higher wages etc to their history of fighting for better conditions through trade unions etc. and also for social reforms. If it were not for that, we would all be paupers. We have a common interests in equality and others winning similar things to ourselves, and both would be better off it we recognise that.

    “We really aren’t, do you really think an Ethiopian with a distended belly or an Indian who picked through a rubbish tip to live would in any way agree that you, someone who has the luxury of internet access, and they are “in it together”?

    Actually, insofar at there is resistance to free-market robbery and other such things that also produce starvation etc. in Africa, we do have a common interest in defeating it. So yes, we are in this together. We all have a common interest in fighting for a better life and equality for all the working class and the poor all over the world.

    “Is this any different to a millionaire like David Cameron telling you “we’re all in this together”? I bet you don’t agree with him when he says that, why should a starving African agree with you when you tell it to them?””

    Yes, it is fundamentally different. Cameron’s con-trick that ‘we are all in this together’ is designed to fool people to accept the cuts and make ‘sacrifices’ to pay the debts that capitalism has run up. I am saying that the ordinary people who work all over the world have a common interest in defeating people like Cameron all over the world who want the working class to pay for the capitalist crisis.

    That is the opposite of what Cameron is saying.

     
  105. Mike the second.

    “Btw what’s your alternative to capitalism?”

    Sorry, forgot to answer that. Mind you, it might take a book or two to answer it properly and I haven’t got time right now. Pretty straightfoward socialism, democracy in the economic sphere (not just the narrow political sphere we have now which renders most people economically powerless). Planning under democratic workers control is the short answer. Have a look at my blog for some more stuff.

    http://redscribblings.wordpress.com

    But there is so much more to be said.

    The other point is this, socialism cannot be created out of someone’s head as a blueprint. That is utopianism. Socialism can only be created from below, by people who are actively both thinking about it collectively and putting it into practice, deciding what to do and what to work on or make by votes, that kind of thing.

    And actually,it is not possible to build socialism in poverty. That’s fundamentally what was wrong with the old ‘communist’ countries, and another reason why you are wrong in your view that the workers of advanced countries have different interests to those of poor countries. Our technique and wealth, once it is taken away from the capitalists, can be used to help the entire world rise up out of poverty. Whereas if you had a revolution that was confined to poor countries, you would have more suffering and a degeneration into new inequality and exploitation.

    In a nutshell, that is exactly what happened in Russia..

     
    • You keep missing my point and trying to paste your own views onto these protests. They are not anti capitalist (though some may take that view) and they are not fighting for the world’s poor; the message is clear, “we deserve our wealth and more”; as far as these people care poverty begins and ends at their income.

      I’ve heard plenty of times that income should be capped but never is it capped below income if the person making the demand, no suggestions of making sure Chinese workers are paid more, no offers of paying more for their consumer lifestyles, their iPhones or cheap clothes so that the people who make them can be paid more.

      The protestors don’t give a crap about the people at the bottom, they care about themselves; I am only the second person to even mention these people and the other mention was also a criticism of the protests.

      If you got what you want then everyone’s standard of living in the west would go down because there simply are not the resources available to give 7 billion people the same living standard as the average European. All these people holding up cards moaning about their debt are not going to like that.

      You may want a socialist paradise but these people don’t.

       
      • Mike I agree & disagree.

        These protests are essentially the first indications that the masses living in rich countries (top 13% globally) is waking up to the fact that their standard of living has started to decline and is probably going to decline from now on. They are also pissed that the the top (1%) caused this and are being bailed out rather than paying to fix the mess because the system is rigged.

        As a mirror image of this the global (90%) have suffered for generations because the inequity and rigged international system. They are presumably pissed that we (and crucially the elite 1%) caused this and continue to live in comparative luxury.

        This latter point doesn’t invalidate the former.
        To say it does is to say “you cannot fight against injustice IF a greater injustice exists elsewhere” – pareto principle is good in theory but impractical in reality.

        …And you know i think it is better for protesters to coming from an understanding of their real needs and desires fight for their own rights rather than paternalistically assuming others needs and fighting from a sense of duty.

         
        • Ok maybe not the masses in uk but elsewhere…

           
        • Well I disagree about the root causes, what the real injustices are and what should be done, imho these protests are at best misguided on those issues, but I do agree that the existence of a greater injustice doesn’t negate the validity of protesting a lesser injustice. It does however make you a massive hypocrite to do so while you yourself are part of the lesser injustice.

          I don’t believe that this is a fight against injustice, I think it’s an attempt to secure these individuals self interests; not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that.

           
          • Also it is not unthinkable that the protesters might – as a separate issue campaign against worldwide poverty or give away some of their money to others.

             
  106. I just did a search through your website on the word ’empathy’, and it appears that there is no reference anywhere using this crucial word.

    Is it not the case that the fundamental underpinning the behaviours of those who use power to such adverse affect is a profound lack of empathy, and that many, many people who are ‘protesting’ are doing so, not from a moralistic or judgemental or ideological stance, but because they FEEL for those who suffer so needlessly….

    I think that whilst debate about technical issues abound, it is striking that the discourse on empathy is practically non-existent.

    Nonetheless, I 100% support everything that is being done, by real live people, around the world, to confront the abuses of Government, of Corporations, of Institutions because I want to live in a society that is founded on empathy, rather than fear, competition, dogma and a struggle to merely survive.

    To that end I have coined a new word : THRIVIVAL.

    Just a thought.

     
  107. I fully support the economic and social arguments behind Occupy LSX. However, I have to disagree with the arbitrary inclusion of “and to stop wars and arms trading” apparently tagged on without any thought at the end of bullet point nine. If the movement is to be taken seriously, you have to move away from the stereotypical Woodstock idealist, who wants free love and peace for all without really explaining a) how that would be achieved and b) how that fits in to the fundamental issues behind the protest. This is about the financial crisis, banks’ behaviour and the economic blackhole into which we are all being dragged. Please do not fuel the ignorant assumptions of the Right by muddying the argument with such a grandiose, irrelevant and whimsical statement.

     
    • Seconded!

       
    • Erm, just a quick point on that: I own a wepons factory & if people wont fall out & fight with each other i loose money. it’s in my interest that people don’t get along & fight with each other.

      *i don’t actually own a wepons factory, but do you get my point??

       
  108. can someone please state why the only online activity from the past two days is people arguing over the statement. THERE ARE NO UPDATES ABOUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING ON THE GROUND. This is like a scene from the life of Brian ffs.

    Google occupy London. The latest item is 2 days old. What the f**k?

     
  109. 1282531 beers on the wall. sck was here

     
  110. I’m really enjoying the design and layout of your blog. It’s a very easy on the eyes which makes it much more enjoyable for me to come here and visit more often. Did you hire out a developer to create your theme? Exceptional work!

     
  111. “4 We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable.

    7 We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world’s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.”

    Surely global equality implies massive cut here as we in this country currently enjoy far more than our equal share?

     
  112. 500 people make epoch changing demands of the government.

    Laughable stuff, not in that it will come to nothing, but in that you people have convinced yourself it is democratic.

     
  113. Tragically infantile protest with no real focus, strategy or ability to convert vague dissatisfaction into political change.

    To attempt to align a movement globally is even more ridiculous. The situation in the UK bears no real resemblance to the US position.

    What’s sad is that this is yet another pointless, tiny, impotent collection of people engaged with a series of critical issues that need to involve a mass movement. Tents, beards and dreads, rightly or wrongly, alienate the mainstream which is where the real power for change lies.

    The sentiments can be admired but this is juvenile, delusional stuff, good only for media soundbites and student debate.

     
  114. Leveller, are you organising something the mainstream can get behind?

     
  115. @MiketheSecond

    Thank you for drawing attention to the massive elephant in the room about the definition of ‘the 99%’. A trenchant point that I notice nobody has been able to answer credibly.

    Concepts of global justice and greed are always relative, but self-righteousness blinds us all.

     
  116. @Chris

    I mentioned mass movements only because I find these periodic outbreaks of protest slightly baffling because they’re so clearly limited in legitimacy due to the minute numbers of participants. If the aim is change this is clearly not the way to go about it.

    I have no solutions. Neither do you. Nor does anyone on these boards or beyond. That is the truth, as opposed to juvenile fantasy acted out by people who have never known hunger for even a day.

    The problem is I’m with MiketheSecond, as my previous post sugggests. I reject the premise of the 99%. It represents nothing more than self-interest and fundamentally echoes the self-interest of the so-called 1%. This is simply about redistribution of wealth in the world’s wealthiest countries and has little to do with any concept of true social justice or any real connection to a global paradigm.

     
  117. I agree with and endorse your statement.
    Well done.
    Aubrey Meyer
    GCI

     
  118. Great start, but I do feel you need to allow for and let other messages come through organically – diversity is good, despite what the broadcast media says and pressures you into one soundbite.

    Sat through the media skills workshop the day after these were decided and they were using these points like a manifesto, somehow think that’s too soon and too didactic. Unity in diversity, strength in numbers including the messages coming from the camp. Also, you need to keep indy/social media at the heart of this, if it’s anything like OWS it might be the only ongoing way to talk to the 99% (or however you want to tag the workers at home) as the media get bored/skew the message/close the gate.

     
  119. Here are a bunch of suggestions, by a seasoned researcher, to end all government and corporate corruption for good: http://bit.ly/nF9xAF

    Share far and wide if you agree. Thank you for caring.

     
  120. MikeTheSecond

    “You keep missing my point and trying to paste your own views onto these protests. They are not anti capitalist (though some may take that view) and they are not fighting for the world’s poor; the message is clear, “we deserve our wealth and more”; as far as these people care poverty begins and ends at their income.”

    “I’ve heard plenty of times that income should be capped but never is it capped below income if the person making the demand, no suggestions of making sure Chinese workers are paid more, no offers of paying more for their consumer lifestyles, their iPhones or cheap clothes so that the people who make them can be paid more.”

    You’re joking, right? The incomes of the poorer sections in advanced countries should be cut and given to the even poorer in backward countries? And those who don’t agree to that are selfish?

    Preposterous.

    “The protestors don’t give a crap about the people at the bottom, they care about themselves; I am only the second person to even mention these people and the other mention was also a criticism of the protests.”

    That argument reads like this: “Think of starving in Africa when you go on strike for better pay. You are greedy people, you should realise how worse off some people are and be grateful for what you have got.”

    In other words, the sort of thing you read in the Daily Mail whenever there is a strike, or a protest against cuts, or whatever.

    “If you got what you want then everyone’s standard of living in the west would go down because there simply are not the resources available to give 7 billion people the same living standard as the average European. All these people holding up cards moaning about their debt are not going to like that.”

    There are ample resources to feed, clothe and provide a decent life to every person on this planet, and indeed considerably more, if things were organised rationally and democratically.

    There are millions of unemployed in advanced countries who could be employed producing socially useful goods and services for the benefit of much larger numbers of people in poorer countries, and raising their standards of living, providing them in turn with the means to produce useful items and services both for each other and for renewed exchange with advanced countries. And reducing poverty, by the way, tends to slow population growth.

    The only thing stopping this is the irrational and socially useless mechanism that means nothing is produced unless it produces a profit for some capitalist employer.

    There are easily enough natural resources to do all this and protect the environment. Indeed, just the task of reorganising energy production along environmentally sustainable lines would provide work for many tens of millions.

    Production for use, in a planned and democratically organised way, would have its own self-sustaining momentum just as the capitalist system had in its earlier period. There is no limit that can be fixed on the advances that could be made if you get rid of the condition that everything has to generate a private profit, and replace it with a benefit to the population as a whole.

    Its unfortunate, but as soon as you raise any kind of banner of social protest, cynics and supporters of the existing system will come to sneer. That’s life, I suppose.

     
    • “You’re joking, right? The incomes of the poorer sections in advanced countries should be cut and given to the even poorer in backward countries? And those who don’t agree to that are selfish?”

      These protests are asking for the incomes of the rich in their countries to be cut and given to them so why shouldn’t the protesters incomes also be cut and given to those poorer than they?

      “Think of starving in Africa when you go on strike for better pay. You are greedy people, you should realise how worse off some people are and be grateful for what you have got.””

      Specifically what is incorrect with that?

      Is it wrong to bear in mind those worse of than yourself? I don’t think so.

      Is it greedy to demand resources from others for none essential uses when there are those who could use those resources even more? Yes imho.

      Are some people worse off than these protesters? Of course.

      Should they be grateful for the things they do have? Why not?

      Nothing in there is factually incorrect and nothing stops them from striving for better standards of living or fairness, that is not what I object to. What I object to is the notion that this is the poor fighting against the rich when in reality it’s the richer fighting against the richer. If they were honest then I’d have more sympathy for them,.

      “There are ample resources to feed, clothe and provide a decent life to every person on this planet, and indeed considerably more, if things were organised rationally and democratically.”

      Not at the standard of the average European.

      “Its unfortunate, but as soon as you raise any kind of banner of social protest, cynics and supporters of the existing system will come to sneer.”

      Only when your protest is for the benefit your own little clique, in this case relativley wealthy westerners.

       
  121. I’d like to request that the second point in the statement be amended to make it clearer that we also adhere to different schools of thought with regards to political philosophy. I feel that the Occupy movement represents my personal philosophy and is in line with my values, which are influenced by Anarchism, Socialism, Syndicalism and Buddhism, but I’m also aware that the movement itself doesn’t belong to or adhere to any particular belief/value system.

    Of course I’d like society to be run according to the principles of my Anarcho-Buddhist Socialist collectivist mentality, but I accept that a lot of people in this movement will have very different ideas. The point is that we can stand together for now to achieve a common goal and argue about those differences AFTER the revolution.

    I feel that amending the second point of the statement to take this point into consideration would prevent or at least lessen the detrimental impact it can have on a movement when other groups try to take credit or jump on the bandwagon with a more personal agenda. It might also make it more accessible to people if they know that we’re not all just “dirty commies” and hippies, or trouble makers or the kind of people that go to EVERY protest and demonstration.

    This movement seems to me to be about class but only in the sense of distinguishing between two social classes really. There are the rulers: a population made up mostly of people who are only people in the ‘legal’ sense of the word. A corporation has all the legal rights that a person does, it trades as one person, but it has no feelings! You’d think being a person would require a personality and that having human rights would require some humanity but apparently not! These “people” are part of the ruling class, along with a few other people who qualify biologically as well as legally. These people are the “1%”. This movement is for EVERYONE else.

     
  122. When the ‘occupy’ protests started in Wall St many of us supported the central premise that big corporations have too much influence over government. And that’s as far as any of this should go.

    Focusing on the big/small government argument or trying to crowbar in some kind of redistribution of wealth agenda is too much.

    A lot of people believe in some form of meritocracy where hard work and/or excellence is rewarded above and beyond, but are strongly against the way a few large or wealthy corporations appear to be calling the shots in their favour.

    Let’s focus on getting to a place where that happens easily and transparently, and leave the other politics out of it.

     
  123. Well I’ve read most of the comments, and found many of them very interesting. I’ve also been impressed with the civility. My input, take time to consider the aims and objective, don’t rush this, its to important. Make sure it’s all based on fact or at least professional opinion, for example the discussion at the end between Redscribe and Mike the Second is really important; inequality in all forms should be addressed, and I believe we should start hear. So although we may be evening things out here first, yes ultimately we would have to look at global resource, but for that to be done we need power back in our, the people’s, hands. That’s just an example, my main point is this shouldn’t be based on just opinion but fact, a good is example is the idea of the a world commons vs. what is called ecological economics, I don’t have the answer to the argument, but the out come should be based on opinion but fact. So as long as we continue to talk in a civilized manor and can be humble enough to accept when we are wrong, so far I think you all have done pretty well compared to most forum debates, then we may have a chance of a true democracy (or better, kzz I see your point but I think that is just the English first past the post system, democracy has many forms.)

     
  124. One other thing, a strategic consideration, inclusion as some have said is important. Also sending out the right message to appeal to every one. In that light as others have said, including Roy, is keep it simple, at least for now. If you over complicate this it could collapse, that’s kind of what I meant buy take your time to think, and talk about ideas and issue. But yeah, for now keep it simple.

     
  125. The London press has highlighted a lack of clarity in what Occupy stands for. For me, Occupy is about the right to negotiate without threat, intimidation or coercion. “Democracy is about the right of the less powerful and less wealthy to negotiate fairer treatment” [Adams Curtis]. I am not opposed to capitalism or power but I am opposed to the uncontrolled trend towards concentration of power and wealth at the expense of the less fortunate. For example, the massive financial bail out we, and the next generation, are being forced to pay for came about due to recklessness over borrowing for property ownership. What resulted from this is this huge disparity where a majority of citizens are still unable to comfortably afford the basic necessity of housing while some individuals own up to 10 rental properties (i.e. in excess of their basic needs) and private companies like A-2-Dominion own in excess of 33,000 residential homes. Why should a company be allowed to “own” and hold back 33,000 families? I wish to see negotiation over a fairer system to encourage and facilitate full, not “shared-ownership” (shared with whom exactly?), for every British couple; cap on residential property price, cap on property ownership for both residential (think A-2-Dominion) and commercial (think Tesco). This is just one idea on something to negotiate for a fairer society. Thanks for reading.

     
  126. Mike the Second

    “These protests are asking for the incomes of the rich in their countries to be cut and given to them so why shouldn’t the protesters incomes also be cut and given to those poorer than they?”

    Or why should not the enormous resources of the rich, who do not simply passively ‘own’ money in piles but also own productive resources, be used to raise the wealth of the developing world to the level of the advanced countries?

    There is a fundamental class difference between the rich and poor of the advanced countries. Its about who owns the productive resources, industry etc.

    Its not just about reducing the income of the rich. Its much more about relieving them of their productive resources, which are the means they use to exploit both the working class in the advanced countries and the workers, peasants and other poor in third world countries.

    In reality, workers in Britain are members of the same class as workers in Egypt, South Africa, India, China, or Brazil – or many other places. And the very wealthy in those countries, even pretty poor countries, are in the same class as the capitalists in advanced countries. They own the productive forces that are the means of production and of generating wealth.

    So no, there should be no levelling down of the working class in Europe and America to the level of the workers of the third world. There needs to be a levelling up at the expense of the capitalists all over the world. It is perfectly possible for all the world’s population to be raised to a standard of living similar to that of the advanced countries. Using planning to organise the most advanced resources of Europe and North America, consciously aimed at that and mobilising all the resources of all the countries involved.

    Many underestimate the enormous productive power of the world economy we have today. The economic depression is not caused by lack of productive power. Its caused by the peculiar situation that, despite that productive power, things don’t get made unless they can be sold at a profit. If that economic obstacle is removed, then you remove the limit on economic growth that is crippling the world economy at the moment and probably will for many years until that limit is removed.

    And most importantly of all, all these things need democracy, decisions taken by the people who do the work in all these places. in some ways, democracy is the most important engine of economic growth of all. In a way, this is enlightened selfishness at a species level – people recognising that if they act together as a collective of workers, they can improve the situation of each and all. Whereas if they don’t hang together, they will hang separately.

    There is nothing wrong with enlightened self-interest that wants to improve the position of everyone as part of trying to improve your own position. What is backward is trying to improve your position at the expense of most ordinary people. That is what this government and the capitalists it represents are doing.

     
    • Sorry Red I don’t want to get dragged into a debate about the efficacy of Marxism, it’s just not the issue. These protests aren’t Marxist in nature, my criticisms of their motive and rhetoric applies within the context of the real protest not the protest that you want it to be.

       
  127. I agree with all nine tenets of the initial statement. For a view on the other nearby occupation:

    http://marcusmoore.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/occupying-the-mind-3/

     
  128. Let’s discuss und develope this manifesto together with all participants of the #globalchange movement.
    http://echo.to/occupylsx-initial-statement
    we need all our thoughts and contributions towards a new world

     
  129. some wolve or wolve in sheeps clothes is trying to turn the flock away illegally from our temple of god;-im the leader of angels and what i say go’s the protesters can stat as long as they want!free.we the people own the church we are the flock,we won’t be pushed around illegally off our land..the authorities say there open policy maight close…WHAT IS AN AUTHORITY according to legal and dictinarys before illegally eredefined a master over the slaves..they can’t remove you,touch you unless you attack innocent people with fists,know your laws….policey man….they can’t counert this with there lies,games,tricks of fake laws……

     
  130. Ok thought a bit more about the manifesto last night and as the London press says there is a lack of clarity over what the occupation is trying to achieve, I think we all have some common goals, but differ on the way we think we should proceed.

    Once again I think the debate between Redscribe and Mike the Second are important in a sense, that global equality is massively disproportionate. However the issues with the UK apply, most people would agree that we should reduce poverty, yet it rarely seems address by the population as a whole. Why? No one answer I’m afraid, but I would say this, how can we truly change things if we have a disproportionate amount of control?

    3 BIG ISSUES;

    Money in politics; Robert Peston, the BBC’s business correspondent, in chapter 8 of his book “who runs Britain?” describes how loans where introduced to political funding, shortly after a cap was set on contribution. Which, as “loans” dont’t have to be publicly announced. Firstly what the hell are political parties doing using loans, there not a business! They have no income other than contributions, as far as I am aware (correct me if I wrong)

    Corporation tax; After Maggie thatcher set up a system of wealth generation, Blair and Brown continued this, setting tax rates that promoted big business, especially financial within London. The amount that London contributes to the economy is massively disproportion, we are dependent on these super rich individuals, who are very effective at dodging taxes. Some argue that the rich shouldn’t pay higher taxes, however they could not have become rich if it weren’t for the infrastructure of the country. Including the roads, water, electricity, education and health care for their work force. Interestingly one employer needs these to, but the owner need them for them self and whole work force, and so use a larger portion of the countries infrastructure compare to an employee’s, hence higher taxes.

    Banks and the financial industry; where to begin! The whole system is a mess, where private finance out preforms the stock market, reducing the amount available for pension schemes. But it’s more than just this, the system seems, although is not, rigged. Companies such as Goldman Sach’s have huge amounts of power both here and abroad, and attract some very intelligent individuals, that rather than helping say cure disease, come up with fairly complex financial packages that make the rich even rich, effectively sucking money away from the rest, this is the area which needs regulation.

    So in summary;

    Loans to political parties needs reviewing, and maybe even the cap to political party funding. Victory should not be link to party spending at election time. I know a lot of people will say “yes but the whole system is corrupt,” and yes I agree but things need to happen a step at a time, for a number of reasons to. Big business and the rich need to pay there taxes. The banking and financial system needs reviewing, with public input. For this complex issues need explaining clearly because some of the issues involved are super complex, unless you’ve studied economics its hard to follow.

    Thanks for listening, just ideas, hope you slate my idea’s, I love to learn. However I hope we all realise we need unity, consistency and simplicity. Think about what over all you want to see happen in the world, then ask your self, whats the first step. Shall we all agree on some simple, concrete steps we can take?

     
  131. I hate to say this but you are going about this the wrong way. You are targetting the wrong people. The bankers, ie their employees are no more to blame than you are.
    What you need to do is to get to the root of the problem, at the moment you are high up in the branches and doing little to kill off the problem. One branch dead big deal,the tree still survives, Kill the roots however and you bring down the whole sorry system, boughs, trunk and leaves and branches all dead. Domestos dead. It is not for nothing that weedkiller usually targets the roots. What you are doing is spraying the leaves and hoping that the roots might get touched. The phrase Pi**ing in the wind comes to mind…….
    To understand the Banks you need to use history and find out who the Banks are owned by. They make a profit for whom? Not the poor bastards who work 140 hours a week and get their paltry bonuses of a few hundred grand No not in the slightest. Who owns the Bank of England ? Its a privately owned bank. It pays money to its investors all 13 of them. Find out who those thirteen are and blockade them!

    It would be much more useful than sitting on the steps of St Pauls making hue and cry, and not bothering the real problem makers who are safe in their boltholes. You might be interested to know that the Federal Reserve that awful private bank in the USA is actually owned by the Bank of England, Lock, stock and both barrels and what is the Federal Reserve doing? Its printing money with no backing , the real reason why prices are going sky high. You only have to look at the Weimar republic in Germany or for a more uptodate example Zimbabwean Dollars, We are all Zimbawean Millionaires even if we only have ten pounds in our pocket. Whats more its doing this on purpose. And so is the Bank of England with its new stimulus quantitative easing ( in short printing itself out of a problem) Who do you think ordered that to happen?

    You sitting around in St Paul’s Churchyard is going to achieve diddly squat. I can promise you that.

    The same forces are at work as they always have been. Nothing has changed in 150 years and you are hardly going to change it. Wise up and act smartly, at the moment all you are doing is creating an eyesore and a bit of public interest.

    One of your targets has already flown the coop, wisely I would say. They are 10000 miles away in the sunshine. The other is probably on his lovely yacht in the Mediterranean. and the others are scattered around where you won’t find them.

    Think, make plans and then act on them Sitting around drinking Starbucks coffee and saying smash the bankers is like a kiddie throwing his toys out of a pram. You’ll get a certain amount of attention but you’ll be studiously ignored.

    Going for the real root of the problem is like cutting the phone wires and the electric cables at night, locking all the doors and windows and then setting a fire when you are a bit older and bit more wiser to what will really freak your parents out. Yes then you can burn down the house, and whats more the system with it.

    As it is you have no clue as to how to proceed.

    The EU is draining us dry, we send 50 million pounds every day to the growing monster in Brussels. No one ever complains I wonder why not? Even David Cameron our so Called Elected representative won’t take our wishes on board. Do you know why? Because he is owned by the banks owners. They dictate policy

    Do you know why this is?

    Whom do the governments of the world owe money to? Who do they pay their debts to? Who holds them in hock for the money that they require and who therefore sets the policies on how this money should be repaid? Its like the local loanshark He makes you do what you have to do to get the money or he sells your debt to a nastier person. Its no different with the banks and the big banks sell out to the even bigger ones All roads lead to the Federal Reserve, American Express and the Bank of England.

    Answer that question and you have your answers Follow the money trail.

    I’m not saying the road is easy Its taken me the best part of nine years to figure it out so far. Frankly I’m surprised you’re at the stock exchange, the loan sharks don’t hang out there, only their debtors do because thats where their desperate debtors try and make the money back, But the problem is that the stock exchange is like a casino, Its biased in favour of the banks, They own it but they never tell you that. And we all know what casinos do? They launder money and make a profit for their owners, but its not the only thing that the owners possess.

    Believe me when I say that everything will be clear if you follow the money trail and cross reference it with how things move.

    You have your work cut out for you and you ain’t going to achieve it on the steps of St Paul’s unless you are praying for divine intervention.

    Start doing a little research You may find it very dangerous.

     
  132. This has nothing to do with money (bits of paper and metal). It is down to a belief in Capitalism and the loss of community. By this I mean scare mongering tactics, to keep you in line and the hope of a better life (one-upmanship). If we unite against fear tactics and refuse to take the bait that separates us from our fellow men and indeed all life, we stop being materialist addicts, into self-destructive tactics and instead stay whole.

    As it is a chasm is opening up between rich and poor, 3rd and 1st world countries and the plant and animal kingdoms that we are mistreating without a thought that this will come back on us. We need to stop running into the future, take stock of where we are and where we truly want to go -is this mass fever pitched hysteria for goods, truly satisfying our needs or a sign that we are spiritually bankrupt as well as fiscally?

    ‘Interest’ has two meanings. Has it occurred to anyone that we are being deliberately panicked, through our beliefs, in order to care for and back this insane, selfish lifestyle that lacks any conscience or consciousness? They are threatening to take our teddy away because we are not playing ball but do we really need it to survive? Men lived without money before. It is nothing but a promissory note for real things and had has led in part to a world that is easier to control than bartering allowed the robber barons of old.

    We should be doing the right thing because it is the right thing, not because it makes us a profit. The World doesn’t really have to change but our attitude towards it does. We need to be honest even if it hurts. We need to communicate, not lie.

     
  133. The ISSUE is not Caplitalism per se, it is the sheer lack of empathy that is now blatantly systemic, endemic and of plague epidemic proportions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JchSac-VP0

    We have seen many different systems fail, in the same manner, to meet the genuine needs of the people for a nurturing environment and a nurturing society.

    Nurturing means that all processes incrementally improve the conditions for all life, which means that the trickle down effect, the industrial processes that have such huge ‘externalised costs’ that others less visible, less powerful have to bear are not nurturant.

    The origins of this lack of empathy can be found in a surprisingly simple practice : the disruption of the child-mother bonding process. This was first described in detail to in a paper in 1975 by James Prescott Phd, a paper that was published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

    http://www.violence.de/prescott/bulletin/article.html

    Recent development in MRI scanning and Neurobiology have proven his assertions correct.

    Furthermore, any society that endures a mass trauma and is unable to healthfully resolve the experience, the feelings associated with that mass trauma, becomes locked into a subconscious pattern that repeats itself, generation after generation…

    This is known as Historical Trauma.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_trauma

    The horrors might be unspoken, rationalised but their adverse effects linger for generations.

    We ARE biologically mandated towards empathy, but it is not hard-wired, it requires an appropriate nurturant environment for it’s fullest expression. Without that nurturing environment, self empathy and empathy is degraded, undermined and fear and the urge to power prevails.

    Unless this matter is discussed, and explored, not least by those mainstream media that claim a humanist stance, then I see no long term resolution available, for it is true that those who reject one rigid system, based on the abuses of that system, only to create a new rigid system, will recreate the abuses of the old one, and often they are far, far more aggressive than what came before them.

    This is the lesson of the ‘progress’ of the Imperial urge, the bankers greed and lack of empathy.

    We need to go deeper, ladies and gentlemen, and not least as a gift to our children’s children.

    Laws fail where empathy can succeed.

     
  134. you are really a good webmaster. The site loading speed is amazing. It seems that you’re doing any unique trick. Moreover, The contents are masterpiece. you have done a magnificent job on this topic!

     
  135. We must remember that a community supports its members and is supported by them in the same way that a body looks after its constituent parts for its own health and well being. Criminals (predators) take advantage of others, for their own personal gain and sometimes even to their own detriment because they fail to think about consequences (When you want to live, you prepare your life for the future (have hope). When you want to die, you deconstruct the present (give in to despair). As Jon Ronson suggests in his book on psychopaths and sociopaths, such people reach for positions of power, with scant regard for what their merciless and greedy attitudes do to themselves, let alone others (stupidly and aggressively suicidal: ‘War isn’t murder, it’s suicide’ Ramsey MacDonald).

     
  136. 6) Instantly offers a natural instability to which the body automatically reacts increasing muscle activity.

     
  137. if you want to stay on catherdral grounds and avoid a court order,obey some claer rules defined by the cathedral owners…:-1.remove most of your tents from site,leave about 12 people on site ect lower the numbers of people2.keep kitchen fuel,stoves way from tents to satisfy fire safety officers.3 keep the kitchens clean for good public health to satisfy there requirements,keep no free food on ground ect…throw away rotten food ect,out of date food.4.have a gazebo instead of tents so people can sleep in that,keep kitchens away from these tents…….fire officers can tell you the rules…limit and use one fuel type only…or get professional market stall like thing for kitchens but keep small and unintrusive to cathedral/don’t know why im helping you ask this whole thing is fake………..ran by evil jews…not real anit capitalist people..tatty bye bye’s!

     
  138. so that our body is doing a balanced exercise unconsciously. Therefore, according to the research,.

     
  139. Masses of ideas are going up and several of us have our own different ways of pulling them together. Eventually we have to pull things down to the practical action level and not just leave general directives. Much of what we want is impossible without international co-ordination – to be developed with our sibling groups & then between nations. I will be revising my initial drafts of the sorts of stuff we need shortly.
    Meanwhile here it is open for inputs.

    Suggestions/Possibilities for Solutions v.3

    Multinationals and large capital holders massively reduce the sovereignty of nation states (democratic and otherwise) by playing them off to reduce control on themselves (taxation, employment conditions, capital flows). So democratic control is only possible if people of all nations and regional groupings collaborate together to enforce the same terms upon them – and none break ranks to offer a better ‘deal’.

    This is unlikely to happen easily, as politicians or their parties tend to be funded by donations of the rich. So only by more massive pressure and awareness from electorates and populations will the balance of power change.

    Therefore our movement should aim to agree a collective series of objectives with our sibling groups across the world and raise their populations’ awareness and pressure on politicians to enact them.
    e.g.
    a) Internationally outlawing tax-havens / secrecy legislatures (embodying a general determination for transparency)

    b) An equal Tobin tax across the world on financial transactions above a certain level

    c) Broad tax harmonisation across the world, so that one country can’t pull in more income by say cutting corporation tax while reducing the effective take for the rest

    d) Independent regulators – this ain’t easy because without inside knowledge you may not understand the system but those who have worked commercially in any system (finance, food, drugs) need to be in a minority and without a revolving door

    e) Change the International Accounting Standards Board for something which serves nations not corporations -> an international framework for accounting transparency. – Including an international court for financial crime – e.g. fraud, breaking international regulations

    Then it gets less precise / more arguable to say how

    f) An end to tax evasion, and the recognition that most avoidance is a question of how much you can afford to pay your accountants and how clever they are, so that taxation is more genuinely progressive

    g) Break-up of private and commercial financial entities down to the level where individual failure will not significantly threaten the individual nation. And therefore refusal for public bailouts (the socialisation of risk)..

    h) Nations guaranteeing to all citizens the livelihood to maximise their own development, physically, educationally, morally …?

    Loads more possibilities but let’s not only deal in ‘warm fuzzies’ – love, equality, freedom, actualisation and suggest parts of the jigsaw to make the whole picture.

    ? higher fractional reserve ratios, separation of lower and higher risk banking entities, stricter control of commodity trading (partially started in US), quantitative easing applied from the bottom (low earners not through merchant banks), longer term debt reduction strategies (which will probably be quicker), restraints on CDSs CDOs (EU law about to weakly enact), make the IASB (international accounting Standards Board) independent, no secret bank accounts, land value tax, wealth tax, end predatory exchange-rate control, bank customer phone-in campaigns threatening to move their account if they propose too large bonuses, develop a plurality of economic alternatives – co-ops, credit unions, social markets & production + ? …..
    I must have missed some biggies. This ain’t perfect but something like it needs to be shared & developed across the world.

     
  140. Don’t protest in my name. I don’t like what you stand for and you do NOT represent me. You represent hate. Shame on you all.

     
  141. good post

     
  142. spot on

     
  143. what about taking the banking system back to the gold standard and stop the passing on of debts and the banks making false profit from debts which will never be recovered but still add to the numbers

     
  144. This is a great site. thank you for blogging it. right on

     
  145. Never trust a capitalist, all they want is your money !!
    SOLD’YA SOLDIER
    Could some one loan me the money so i could make a 15ft high efergy of a British Sold’ya in full uniform with a sign hung around his neck with the word SOLD’YA written on it. Feel free to contact me on 07922314777 or feel free to do the project yourself.

    Kind Regards
    Stephen Bicker (aka The Kid)

     
  146. oh and i forgot to mention my intention is to hang the efergy off the cenotaph and maybe every war memorial

    Rgds
    The kid

     
  147. @ Stephen : the word you’re looking for is effigy

     
    • Thank you Anna i was unsure if it was efergy or ethergy but clearly neither 🙂 xx

       
  148. We need a Constitution, made by the People, for the People
    http://thepeoplescharter.blogspot.com/
    It’s got to be worth a look?

     
  149. It’s really great to see the resurgence in activism with Occupy groups that have sprung up in the States and world-wide; the idea of occupying some land is very on-target, but to do so only to petition for politicians/bankers/corporations to stop being greedy and destructive, is not. That doesn’t work, as history shows. The ruling class actually can’t help but be that way, they are just symptoms of a deeper disease; the social-system they operate within (like any social-system) is inherently unjust and unprincipled in many ways, most importantly by forcibly disconnecting us from the Earth through land control/taxation.
    Representative democracy is a lie, it can only exist at the most localized of levels, in which you are not subordinate to any false authority. The answer to the inescapable fascism of social-systems is to occupy land and claim it as a human right, to claim sovereignty on your fair share of the Earth that you and your family can live self/community-sufficiently and sustainably on. We can’t change this system of human farming into something truly principled; foolishly trying to just legitimizes the false authority of those deemed “officials”, our false parental overlords. Instead we should choose to live in harmony with Nature and each other, dissolving false authority, domination and hierarchy by establishing sovereign veganic homesteads making up voluntary communities.
    If you can’t end your monetary slavery, if you cant live freely and naturally, then you are just petitioning for better jail cells. Occupy Wall St. groups should join in solidarity with groups like The Land & Freedom Camp (http://landandfreedom.squat.net/), that are addressing the real fundamental problem: our restriction from living naturally on the Earth as sovereign humans beings. If they don’t, they will find their energies being drained away by trying to fix a system that cannot be repaired, and the destructive and exploitative status-quo will continue to reign.
    When this crucial Earth-centric perspective is more widely understood and championed by social-justice activists world-wide, when people start claiming their birthright to their fair share of cost-free land & water, there will be real potential for lasting positive change. Green Anarchism, and more specifically Veganarchism, needs to become mainstream if we are to save this planet, other species, and ourselves; anything less lacks the principled foundation to defeat this immoral system that is the root source of the majority of our problems. May truth and freedom prevail.

     
    • Cost-free Land & Water as a Right
    • Cost-free Land & Water as a Right well said

       
  150. Please let me know if you’re looking for a writer for your site. You have some really good articles and I think I would be a good asset. If you ever want to take some of the load off, I’d really like to write some content for your blog in exchange for a link back to mine. Please send me an e-mail if interested. Thank you!

     
  151. much appreciated

     
  152. thanks

     
  153. on topic

     
  154. man, I’ve been tracking down for this page in every direction the google. right on

     
  155. There’s a difference for appears on the Record and anything you report to your very own insurer. In all probability you’ll get asked if you’ve ever experienced a DUI about the company paperwork.

     
  156. Ban Members of Secret Societies from Serving in Government

    Responsible department: Office of the Leader of the House of Commons

    I propose the any member of a secret society, should be banned from also being permitted to be a member of government or its related bodies, i.e. our town halls, the judiciary, military and the police etc. – as it’s without doubt a major conflict of interest. – This currently abhorrent state of affairs where anyone involved in our governments etc. are allowed to be also members of a secret society that require death defying oaths to be sworn, – whereas the blindfolded initiate, and with a dagger held to their heart, swears to be 100% allegiant and committed to the Masonic agenda, – and over and above that of all else. The potential for corruption and dodgy deals makes a complete mockery of our democracy and justice system. Our government and its representatives; via our town halls and justices of law must be free from commitment to these highly influential groups if they are expected to maintain a shred of credibility and earn the public’s trust and respect once again. Sign the petition now; http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/14653

     
  157. Yet what should be happening, – is that there ought to be lock-ins and takeovers of our town-halls, libraries, swimming pools, schools, old people’s homes and hospitals, – and wherever else they’re thinking of closing down or cutting back on, – and stay-put and refuse to leave. Though more importantly everyone should descend on London, with tents and sleeping bags in hand and form a ‘Big Society’ of voluntary protesters, who should come together as one and look after each other in food, water, bedding and washing facilities etc, – they should be working in shifts and refusing to leave the occupied site like those protesters did at Tahrir Sq in Egypt, or Pearl Square in Bahrain. The country needs more Brian Haw’s, a 61 year old British protestor, famous for living in a “peace camp” in London’s Parliament Square since 2001 in an anti-war protest. See next comment;

    The people of the UK ought to do what Haw’s done for well over 10 years, and I’m ready, – the reason he’s still there is because whilst his alone ‘no one will listen’, swell the numbers by a few hundred or more, and your soon see some action be taken from those who reside across the road in Westminster Palace, – stay put on Parliament Square and remain there until the government promises to change our current corrupt laws, i.e. no Freemason can serve in any position of government or the civil service.
    New laws and regulations should be raced through the commons that can jail anyone for many years if caught with their snouts in the trough, – and more importantly go after those who we allegedly owe billions of pounds to, – and renegotiate a deal, or renege on it. Let’s get those companies and banks presently avoiding paying billions in taxes etc., whilst nicking billions in bonuses, – and scrap the present loop-holes that exist and allows these unjust ‘rules and clauses to be taken advantage of, – then with all the additional revenue created from this simple but effect change in our present – and stupid system, – will amount to so much more money coming into the public purse, – that the country will not have to slash billions of pounds off its current budget, – and will of course also help towards the countries present deficit.
    We really ought to being protesting like mad here in the UK, – and I can’t believe the shit the American public seem to take from their governments, it goes without saying, we really are in a robotic state. You have to admire those in Europe and the middle-east, and particularly the French, Greeks, Egyptians and Libyans, etc. – who are so proud of themselves they’re prepared to die for their rights, – as over here or like that of the US, the only things I hear that people are dying for, is a cup tea, cigarette or a beef burger – “I could fucking murder a cuppa, slaughter fag, or kill for a bacon butty…” We’re so lucky over here in our countries, whereas we don’t, or at least shouldn’t have to die trying to get our voices heard, but we still need to protest, we were once the masters of it.
    If we all stood together and descended on parliament in ‘Jarrow style’ marches, but in our thousands and demanded ‘real change’, not ‘loose change’, and continue to do so until we could see they are ‘now’ representing the people, and not just themselves, – because this can’t be achieved through the ballot box, as all we’re doing is replacing a barrel of rotten apples, with a bunch of sour grapes, – and then things will begin to change for the better, as that’s how it works, – because if we don’t, then nothing will ever change for the better and things will undoubtedly get much, much worse.
    We need to stop these Masonic gangsters from continuously stealing trillions of pounds, dollars and Euro’s from our public purses, we need to see through the smoke screens and pretence as to why our economies are fairing so badly, – because if the truth is known, it will take years before any kind of all-party agreement in regards to our so called debts, – will ever come about, – and again I raise the point, who the fuck do we owe all this money to anyway? – Names please!, as it better to let an handful of elites lose a few billion, as opposed to millions of people having to suffer.
    As I’ve said before let’s knock the handful of banksters who the debts are allegedly owed to, just think of them as collateral damage, as millions of our lives have been affected and in times like this we’re being told we should be thinking as collective! Anyway, those handful of investors who expect us to cough-up trillions of pounds out of the public purse, won’t starve, in fact they could become international hero’s and wouldn’t want for nothing, as I’m sure their always find a square meal no matter where they go. Just because in the West are now suffering, we can’t expect the growing economies to bail out our corrupt leaders and bankers. As the Chinese say; “Because you’re sick, you can’t expect us to have the take the same medicine”.

    Written before the sad loss of the people’s soldier; Col. Major Brian Haw. Extract from; Trapped in a Masonic World.

     
  158. on topic

     
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  168. who is the spokes person of your action and who the leading head? both or one of these should sleep tonight at the exchange place in city together with companies heads against homelessness! if so i do it as welol and we could have a serious chat about how long the lord is willing to accept your protst inside city of london!!!

     
    • KNIGHT TEMPLAR markus noerenberg
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