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Occupy London responds to resignation of the Dean of St Paul’s

 

The Occupy London occupations, at London Stock Exchange (by St Paul’s Churchyard) and at Finsbury Square, are about social justice, real democracy and challenging the unsustainable financial system that punishes the many and privileges the few.

The management of St Paul’s Cathedral is obviously deeply divided over the position they have taken in response to our cause – but our cause has never been directed at the staff of the Cathedral.  Nor have we ever called for ‘scalps’ as reported in the media.

We ask that St Paul’s Institute publish its report into renumeration in the financial sector and call on those of all faiths and none to be part of a call for change. Together, we are the 99 per cent.

We reiterate the need for open and transparent dialogue involving all parties, including the Cathedral, the Corporation of London and others, through our relevant liaison groups. This is a historic opportunity to make a real difference and a real change for all in our society, in the UK and beyond.

 

105 Responses to “Occupy London responds to resignation of the Dean of St Paul’s”

  1. The lord works in mysterious ways.

    I think/hope the kingdom of heaven is a kingdom of good conscience.

    I trust those within St Paul’s who have recently decided to lay down their positions have been useful and beneficial to many in society, and for that i thank them.

    There is seemingly a fork in the road approaching rapidly, and i imagine the situation for a lot of you at St Pauls is a tricky one at the moment.

    May God steer you on the right course, in good conscience whatever that may entail, if it means staying with the church, so be it, if it means changing the church so be it, if it means leaving the church so be it.

    But it is my belief that the “church” is the world that we find ourselves living in, and that whenever two or more people are together, and think Jesus is cool, then “there i am with them”. As the righteous dude of God said Himself. (but not his exact words ;).

    May Gods will be done, not ours.

     
    • if the jews among the OCCUPY #LSX PROTEST USE THE STUFF IVE quoted against the people that are good among them……God we deal them there death warrant.+the jewish community are not evil,its a few f ruking it up for the rest of us………these people are masonic jews 1000 years’s of rule……//////bill shoeblen talks about it,the cult of the serpent….ect ect…..bilderberg set up by a nazi from holland….who killed good jews………….not these evil ZIONISTS MASONIC BILDERBERG JEWS HIDING AMONG THE OCCUPY PROTEST HERE!the politicians,liberal,george osbourne,and david miliband all masonic jews….went to bilderbrg…….part of commitee 300 and commitee 30,united nations rothchilds build it,frakfurt mason lodge 1700’s….

       
    • we were always told preached at that church authorites were on the side of people who were alienated. now we see the reality. they have chose to side with the ugly face of capitalism and greed, remember the world is watching, therefore people should remain peacful dignified. no provocation or voilence

       
      • 100% agreeing with you Con Carroll.

         
  2. It is spelled “remuneration”.

     
  3. Is there any clarity on why he actually resigned?

    Best guess .. he wants you evicted but doesn’t want [to be responsible for] violence to be used against you yet has started down a legal road that will lead to violent eviction, unable to resolve this conflict he resigns.

    Other guess .. shadowy figures within the corporation of london / security services / corporate lobbyists want you evicted violently, he disagrees but is powerless to prevent it .. and resigns.

     
  4. I have a question. How come it is the church figures who appear to lean more towards the side of the protesters that are resigning?

    Surely it should be the church folk who support the eviction of the tennants who feel so ashamed to be going against the teachings of the Bible that should be handing in their resignation?

    Unfortunately as it stands its the figures within the church most likely to provide a neutral point of view are the ones that are resigning. The right wing side of the church seems unphased, and therefore it will probably be that side which prevails.

    This fact encourages me. This is everything we are fighting against.

    Just my opinion 😉

     
  5. “This fact encourages me. This is everything we are fighting against.”

    Um… what?!

    Since when was this a fight against the church?

    The church had absolutely zilch to do with the financial crisis. It was the bankers in the city.

    To a casual outsider who believes passionately in the need for reform, in equality, in a legally enforceable ratio between bottom and top pay, and a need to overthrow the rotten system still incumbent, the politics of this protest have descended into a pathetic farce.

    You’ve closed a church for the first time since the Blitz. A dean, a good, principled man of the cloth who had nothing to do with the crisis has resigned. Take that capitalism! Take that bankers! Good for you Occupy London, you’re really nailing this.

    This whole movement with its splendid roots in a genuine desire to see change has catastrophically failed. Pick your fight with the rotten banking system, not the local vicar.

    Get real, seriously. Absolutely stunned and flabbergasted.

     
    • The church closed the church, not the protesters, while making up claims of fire risks and H&S.

      “The church had absolutely zilch to do with the financial crisis. It was the bankers in the city. ”

      Have you seen who runs St. Pauls?

      St Paul’s Foundation
      Chairman
      Sir John Stuttard PWC partner, Former Lord Mayor of London.

      Trustees
      The Right Reverend Graeme Knowles, Dean of St Paul’s
      Dame Helen Alexander DBE Deputy chair of the CBI, director of Centrica plc
      Lord Blair of Boughton Former Metropolitan Police Commissioner
      Roger Gifford Investment banker, big in City of London
      John Harvey – Not clearly identified
      Joyce Hytner OBE – Theatre director
      Gavin Ralston Global Head of Product and leading international asset manager at Schroder Investment Management
      Carol Sergeant CBE – Chief Risk Director at Lloyds TSB, formerly Managing Director for Regulatory Process and Risk at the FSA
      John Spence OBE – Former Managing Director, Business Banking, LloydsTSB

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/10/21/lets-name-those-who-decided-to-move-occupylondon-on-from-st-pauls/

       
      • OK, so it seems like a mix of local business leaders from the city and the arts world, some ex-civil servants and some clergy. No surprises there.

        I do take your point though – a lot of them are bankers.

        But you’ve got to look at the symbolism of what’s happened. It’s currently protestors vs. Church. It needs to be protestors vs. City.

        If this means moving to somewhere like Finsbury Square, then move. You’ve got to pick your fights, and this one is not worth fighting. It’s not about “the right to protest”, it’s about the fundamental structural failure of our economy. Anything else is pointless, suffocating distraction. And when you’ve closed a church and beheaded a dean – it’s time to refocus your energy on the actual problem.

        No?

         
        • As much as the protest is against the bankers, it’s for living ethically and morally. The church, if it can find its voice, is surely with us. The protest ended up outside the cathedral by accident (having been excluded from Paternoster Square), but the symbolism is potent.

           
          • Yes yes.
            “GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS”

            and how about…
            EVERY CLOUD HAS A SILVER LINING
            I say this on the back of ‘occupy’ not being allowed to get directly in front of the stock exchange quite possibly has given the campaign a better start than may have been.
            I say again…..GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS.

            The good people outside of st.pauls are in no way to blame for the resignations, it was the canon’s and dean’s own morals that are to blame. To them i hope they are being looked after by their ‘church’ and again I would say to them…………………….

            GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS

            By the way, I am not a religious practitioner but I did have a religious upbringing.

             
          • And, by God, it seems the church *is* finding its voice!

             
          • Hallelujah ! and Amen !

             
      • That’s the composition of the Trustees of the St Paul’s Foundation, which is the fund-raising arm – the Dean and Chapter “run” St Paul’s

        http://www.stpauls.co.uk/People-at-the-Cathedral/Dean-Chapter

         
      • Get real and check some facts.

        Those are the people who ran a particular fundraising campaign.

        St Paul’s is run by the Dean and Chapter.

        It is a mistake to fall for conspiracy theories.

         
        • You get real,
          Its just been on the BBC or Sky cant quite remember which so excuse me for lack of clarity, the people in question manage the fundraising, not a single campaign. If this is wrong take it up with BBC/SKY because I cannot be held responsible for being brainwashed by the powers that be !

           
          • Fundraising – exactly.

            Nothing at all about managing/controlling the Cathedral.

            Which would be why they are not a majority, or formally represented on, the Dean and Chapter…

             
          • yes thats a bit clearer now.
            btw have you seen/heard latest st. paul’s news ?

             
  6. injunction is an thing against you,its not working for you,hence is illegal,its basically illegal slavery folks! they are not for you ie,legal real law,they are against you,illegal state capture slavery laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!even a legal act against you,,,,,,is a fiddle,no matter what they make up,,crap against you,its all fake.and illegal……………..

     
  7. a legal act or action made up as evil hoof’s of the state is no subsitute for real law,of witch there are no real laws really,only stopping voilent attacks on others,and drugs offences,or knife crime,traffic offences,thats it!and rape,these are the only real offences and murder,burgulary……..but if you have a good reseason………offences don’t even exist at all legally……like rioting to stop injustice,or legitmate protests,some protests are not legimitate,your protest is legitimate…!the church is sactuary…….jesus lived for free,stay on church property…..live for free……right wing capitalists are jealous…..

     
  8. zionists are the real scum in this movement,its fake,but i’ll help you!

     
  9. As I read the Dean’s statement, his resignation is at least partly related to the confused message about health & safety / the decision to close. The cathedral management has been made to look, at the very least, stupid, by those who have paid proper attention to the statements and events at St Paul’s. (The media has generally been quite kind in this regard – allowing the maybe-some-tents-moved idea to drift about; the result being unjust to the protesters.)

    On the other side of the media, The Independent’s handling of the “suppressed” report was biased. Of course the report will be published, and it always would have been; delaying it is the kind of strategic decision that I think pretty much any organisation would have made in such circumstances.

     
  10. If you had an ounce of decency, you would have left the cathedral when asked. The church is an unwitting victim in all of this; they invited you on to their property when no where else would let you protest but you abused their generosity. You put two people in an impossible situation and your actions had consequences – I’m sure you didn’t expect or intend it but they’ve resigned. They felt like they had no other choice and that’s deeply unfair but never mind, I’m sure you guys were enjoying your zombie banker run while this was all going on.

    By the way, a few things before I finish:

    1. Stop misquoting the Bible to try and justify your actions. Go and protest in Finsbury Square, no one has a problem with that.
    2. Publish all the the general assembly minutes and reinstate the ones that were removed. I’ve a pretty good idea why you are prevaricating on this.
    3. Closing the cathedral was likely due to insurance reasons, nothing to do with bankers, the Corporation of the City of London, Jews, Bilderburgers, lizards, or anything else.
    4. As one poster above says; pick your battles. You’ve spent the week fighting the church, not the banks. Wrong battle.

     
    • It’s not going to happen :-).

      The movement depends on the publicity from breaking the law then being expelled.

       
      • I have to disagree ANON,
        This movement will depend on good publicity and good people joining in, and excuse the religious pun good people ‘seeing the light’
        Hyping up law breaking is anarchy not change !

         
        • I’m watching – and if it happens as you say this time then I’ll change my view.

          I’m basing my view on the last 18mths of the anticuts movement, of which this is the latest version.

           
          • Anon,
            Excuse the un-intended sarcasm, but thats what a movement does, from 18mths ago it has moved on ! evolving, I have only recently joined in, the movement is moving. Dont be the last to join in.

             
    • Before you finish Jim,
      If the church had an ‘OUNCE OF DECENCY’ they would have invited the protesters into the church.
      This would have done their flagging P.R a world of good, a win win situation…….a larger congregation to preach to/convert and would have negated the need for tents outside !!
      And I am serious with my jest.

      Further if you had an ounce of decency you would stop having a go at people who are trying to do a good thing. They are not fighting the church, the church is in-fighting if you think about it.
      As for your other 4 points…point 1…..I am sure there are people who have a problem there being tents in finsbury square.
      2. what is your pretty good idea, share it please, that fundamentally is where the movement is at, at the moment, trying to get some good ideas in place.
      3. if the closure was due to ‘insurance reasons’ why is it open again? because not much has changed before or after closure. I beleive it was just a stupid mistake to close it, simple really. Stupid mistake along with stupid attitude within church caused the resignations.
      4. St.pauls chose to battle with protesters not other way round.

       
      • In regards to point 4, I fail to see how the church has chosen to battle with the protesters. *you* invaded the space, they let you get on with it for a bit, and *you* have already said that the success of the movement relies on being forcibly evicted and the publicity that will go with that. How is this anything but you being the aggressor with regards to the church?

         
        • Sarah,
          Glad to see you joining in debating the rights and wrongs, it is a good way to go.
          I must come back at you re your comments.
          Point 4, The protesters were forced by police away from stock exchange, the church then allowed/invited them to stay. Then they went down the road of taking legal advice to have them moved ! Thats what I mean by the church choosing to battle.
          Furthermore, I did not say the success of the movement depends on being forcibly evicted, to the contrary, I rebuked ANON for their comment about breaking the law to be expelled to get publicity.
          That said Sarah, (I am sure your apologies will be posted soon 😉 ) what is your grievance really, surely your concern for St. Pauls is unnecessary as the only harm they are suffering is self inflicted by their own in-fighting. The protesters have not asked for resignations. They have and rightly so questioned the churchs moral stance, as to my mind st. pauls main concern has been about loss of income ! The church has embaressed (?spelling) itself, and it is this embaressment which prompted the canon and dean to resign. I wish them well and I hope St. Pauls and the C of E serve them as well as they have served the church.

           
          • Firstly, I will apologise for misunderstanding who had said what earlier – mea culpa!

            I would debate that there is a world of difference between being allowed to stay and being invited to stay in a place.

             
          • Sorry for leaving that half way through – I was cake making! Anyway….

            My concern for St Paul’s is partly fiscal. Whether we like it or not, there is a certain amount that these buildings cost to maintain daily. That money has to come from somewhere. It doesn’t all come from offertory plates, it can’t! (There is another debate here over whether St Pauls et al are in fact places of worship or tourist attractions and whether they can be both, but this isn’t that debate.)

            My concern for St Paul’s as a hierarchy also comes from a respect for the position that these people hold. The infighting that has occurred has been caused by the influx of protesters Many of us have been in the position where we have invited someone over, only to find that they are still there long after they have outstayed their welcome, but even the most obstreperous maiden aunt doesn’t sleep over for as long as the protesters have been there! What other ways were tried to protest before America was yet again blindly followed?

             
          • Sarah,
            I have replied to you further down this………… ……’blog space’ ?
            h.o.p.e. is michael

             
  11. I struggle to see how about 200 of you (I’m not sure how many of you there are) down outside St Paul’s Cathedral represent the “99 per cent”. I think this whole protest has been run terribly. I agree with many of your concerns, and appreciate your anger at the elites in our society that seem to always get away with messing things up – however, when you are acting in ways that necessitate the closure of St Paul’s for the first time since the Blitz, and when you are inconveniencing many people who you claim to represent, then naturally people will turn against you. Perhaps you should practise the democracy, communication and participation that you preach and stop letting the usual suspects (ie the idiots who’d rather spend their lives turning up to these protests than actually doing something useful) organise your protest.

     
    • The protest is and should be for all of us. If you agree with the sentiment but not the means then come down and get involved too.

       
  12. So a decent man has his life ruined by a bunch of middle-class part-time hobby protestors, self-appointed spokespeople( for no-one at all) who sponge off the system whilst moaning about it. If these trustafarians really do represent more than themselves, we’re all f*cked.

     
  13. The unelected, unaccountable Corporation of the City of London is showing the UK up for the sham that it is! Marching around the world shouting from the rooftops about democracy when it’s becoming increasingly apparent how undemocratic the UK itself is. The Corporation of the City of London is being exposed as an undemocratic state within a state and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to hide their crookedness, lies and deceit! How apt that this should all play out in front of St. Paul’s Cathedral considering that it was he who first delivered the Christian message to Europe. The police forced the protestors from Paternostra Square “Our Father’s Square” and they ended up outside of St. Pauls! It’s difficult to see how the Corporation will wiggle their way out of this one without adding to the growing empathy that people feel for the protestors! Ha! Ha! Ha! O the irony of it all! These NWO guys who are intent on wiping out Christianity have inadvertently highlighted the profound truth of the Christian message! I just LOVE it!!! Jesus loves the occupiers so boo hoo Corporation of London! Your days are numbered. The writing is on the wall! We know the tricks of your ways! We know who you are! We are peaceful but we are legion so this time you will not silence us and we have God on our side! 🙂

     
  14. It’s very sad that churchmen with consciences have been the ones to resign, in what is really just a sideshow to the protests.

    Maybe the best tactic would be to move to Finsbury Square, to remove the Church from the equation and focus back on the real issues (and maybe the Church might give more wholehearted support.)

    Maybe the worst tactic would be to move to Finsbury Square, where eviction will be easier, without the need for the state to consider the impact on the Church.

    I hope you find the right way forward

    xx

    Wigan

    “Start where you are, use what you have, do what you can.”

     
    • I believe the word ‘church’ means people.
      An empty st.pauls is not a church without people,
      perhaps if they did show some wholehearted support for ‘good’ they would allow the protesters to sleep inside the church, winter is coming after all and this would perhaps rid the site of tents.
      Now how christian would that be !
      Go on st. pauls I dare you !

       
      • And who will pay for the heating? The cleaning? Who will ensure the place is treated respectfully? Who gives you the right to dictate to St Pauls and to the Christian faith as a whole what they should and should not be doing? What have *you* ever put into the faith? What have *you* ever put into the church? Suddenly you want it to bend over backwards for you, whilst you do nothing for it except stop it being able to function. How do you think that will work – and how does it stop you being different to the corporate bullies that you aim to destroy?

         
        • Yep. That’s what being Christian is really about in deed and not word. Action not lip service. No strings. Unconditional love for one another even if we don’t agree with the views.

          One thing occupy London has NOT seen from the *Christian* community running St Pauls, IS christianity 🙁

           
        • Sarah, by the same token.. what right does the christian faith have to dictate to the people and what they should and should not be doing? Why did they close their doors (wash their hands like ponteus pilate)?) WHYdo you believe the christian faith more honerable that the faith of the people protesting as they demonstrate their own beliefs coming from justice compassion and love as they try to bring to light the suffering of our english peoples and the uncaring oblivious attitude of the elite? and may i say the church? dare i say hypocracy of the church as they hide and refuse to take a stand for us, us the people of this country. When has the church ever bent over backwards for the protestors? After all its the church that is protesting of them? Who then actually is bullying who?

           
          • Thank you Pete H and Susanne for replying whilst I slept.
            I had some hope that Sarah would ‘see the light’ but alas I think you may have sent her back into her warm and cosy C of E cocoon.

             
        • and Sarah,
          as for the heating and cleaning, you never know but perhaps the protesters themselves would be happy to contribute, I would be happy to help out if this was to happen.
          Perhaps the Corporation of the City of London could also contribute as the sight of the protesters is so hard for them to bare !
          I know (not sure if you do?) times are hard, particularly at the moment, but I think they could afford a little bit, don’t you ?
          As for your respect concerns, have these protesters as has been continually commented on in all media, been the most respectful and peaceful ever known ?
          I am sure if invited into the church they would have the utmost respect.
          As for my right to dictate to the st. pauls and the christian faith, I am not, dictators tend to get their way do they not ?
          Perhaps you should be saying what gives me the right to be ‘talking’ with st. pauls and the christian faith….
          …………. God did, I am a christian !
          I do not want it to ‘bend over backwards’ for ME as you go on with your rant, but I do expect it to ‘bend over backwards’ for the downtrodden.

          Your comments I am finding quite saddening,
          you obviously have a passion for st. pauls, and christianity, I think !, but you are coming across as being more concerned for the building itself and its finances than for the moral and ethic right and wrongs of the situation.
          As a christian, no let me leave religion aside, as a human, look yourself in a mirror and ask yourself what is really important ?

           
          • Oh my love. And I mean that in the whole sense of “Come and have cake and tea and talk!” The one thing that debate on this kind of level shows is that none of us knows where the other one is coming from. I’m … what am I? I’m Christian, I’m a teacher, I’m a military widow suddenly left in the lurch by a tragic accident when he’d survived two trips to the hot and sunny lands. I’m a mother to a small-but-growing child who grieves for the man he loved, I’m a woman putting her life back together again, and emotionally, physically, financially, yes, I know times are hard. I also know that there are others who have it harder than me, who didn’t see their man the day he died because he’d been abroad for months, whose children won’t know their father because they weren’t born when he died, and still others who didn’t have a job and friends to fall back on, and who are alone in their grief, leaving a families quarter to go to a bedsit somewhere. And still, there are others worse than that. I look in my sons eyes every day, and I hold fast to the hope that everything happens for a reason, that God knows what He is doing, that my wonderful Pagan partner is now reborn somewhere or with God, depending on which one of us was right. But we respected what each other believed, and facilitated each others beliefs, and loved like there was no tomorrow. And one day, there wasn’t.

            The church has never let me down. I’m not CofE, nor yet (as you can perhaps now tell) secure in a warm and cosy cocoon. I work hard to provide for my son, in a house that I and Northern Rock own – and I rode that banking storm in a sea of nerves, I can tell you! My church loves me, my son, loved my partner, and respected our choices. (and there, Pete H, is the practicality of the deed in action – when a minister creates a Celebration service that has to encompass so much, praises so much, and even supplies the tea and cakes for someone who, technically, was not “one of the flock”)

            It is, perhaps, not that I do not have a grasp of the moral and ethical rights and wrongs of the issue, more that I don’t have the freedom to take time out of my life to fight a war, when there are so many smaller battles to be fought every single day. The St Paul’s aspect of your issue is detracting from the real problem. You and the protesters are becoming the problem, when you sought to be the solution. The issue of whether St Pauls (as an example of the institution that the CofE has become – and who wants to be in an institution….) is right or wrong or influenced more by God or Health and Safety is irrelevant.

            It is, however, thought provoking.

             
          • Sarah,
            thought provoking certainly is what you have achieved. These ‘threads’ more often than not run out of steam or reach a dead end at both ends of a point of debate. However, after reading your reply in this thread I feel I owe you, if you can stomach it, a very thoughtful reply, just not sure I can find appropriate words in a hurry; especially as some of my nearest and dearest would say I am a bit too thoughtful, painfully so sometimes !
            So that said, I think for the sake of ‘time’ a precious thing you know about only too well, I will say only this…….I wish your son well, and you too, and hope (as my name in acronym is h.o.p.e. Human Of Planet Earth) sincerely hope for a better future for your children and mine, (sadly cant see it improving in time for me personally even though I am, and I will take some pleasure in quoting you here from another of your replies, even though I am a ‘young man’ 🙂 ! )

            Sincere hope,
            Michael

             
  15. Hello, from the team that brought you the legal lowdown on attending the City of london Corporation meeting on Friday, here’s our new effort on longer term strategy http://tinyurl.com/5whgj42: ‘Driving the moneychangers from the temple: a technical guide’

     
  16. It’s hard to see how OccupyLSX will ever recapture a coherent message or point after the events of the last couple of days.

    By trying to pick and choose when you agreed with St Pauls, and being their friend only when they did what you said, you’ve managed to make the debate all about the church, and nothing to do with the banks. You’ve fragmented a faith community, interrupted acts of worship, and the best engagement your press interactions can offer is ‘it was them that made the mistakes, not us’.

    The new strategy of trying to align the movement with a religious ideology (whilst riding roughshod over the quite challenging issues Christians face about how to engage with society) is coming across as disrespectful and overconfident. I hope it’s not pointing out the obvious, but you are not the revolution the church has been missing for the last two millennia.

    Although I’ve not been sympathetic with the protests, I’d at least thought they were more sensible and rational than a lot that had gone before. However, the arrogance of pursuing a course of action simply to show you were right, and not being willing to share in the responsibility for things going pear shaped, sounds day by day more and like bankers saying ‘it wasn’t our fault, this wasn’t what we intended, it just happened’.

    Those 200 tents are looking more and more like an isolated community, angry at anything that opposes them, unfocused, and simply desperate for affirmation and attention. It seems that occupy has lost control of the message in London, and you are going to carry on hurting the wrong people if you don’t have the humility to realise and respond to that.

     
    • Don’t worry friend. This protest is more than just a protest outside St Pauls. It is a global movement against a corrupt system, we are currently living in.

      And it will succeed.

      Balance will be restored.

      For “those that exalt themselves will be humbled and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” thats Luke 14:11 by the way. Exactly quoted for any nit-pickers in the crowd 😉

       
      • I sometimes imagine the irony of the pyramid scheme of capitalism in a simple vision.

        Imagine a pyramid by a lake.

        Now imagine the pyramid has a perfect reflection on the lake.

        Now look at the reflection in the lake of those at the top of the pyramid, who tread on others to lift themselves up.

        Maybe then the reflection is actually the reality? 😉

         
        • Glad to see a reference to pyramid selling, fits perfectly well the state of affairs.

          I also like to use an analogy of the brainwashed human race resembling a plague of rats scrambling over each other for scraps of food that the ‘king rats’ have dropped or left.

          I do not want to live like this anymore, and I dont want my children to have to either !

           
      • ‘it will succeed’…’those that exalt themselves will be humbled’

        I think you might have just demonstrated my point rather succinctly. The danger with trying to twist faith to support your cause is that it often reveals our true motives are not quite as simple as we thought.

        And pyramids and reflections. All sounds a bit ‘Old Spice Guy’ adverts to me. Look at the pyramid, then back at me, then back at the pyramid…you’re on a boat.

         
        • I’m not twisting anything man, i’m just quoting the righteous dude Jesus.

          It is my belief that it will succeed. Better? 😉

          You think the current world situation is fine?

          Maybe the old spice guy knew something we didn’t.

          Maybe the old spice guy had enjoyed a lavish lifestyle and used a bit too much old spice and gone mental. 😉

           
          • And if we’re twisting scripture, then why not

            ““Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” Matt 22:21

            Get a job and pay your taxes!

             
        • ““Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” Matt 22:21

          Sarah – I’m SOOOO happy someone referenced that at last! 😉

           
          • Yes, Businesses should stop using tax havens and pay their taxers! Well done!

             
          • We should *all* do right, not just the bankers, not just the woman-in-the-bread-shop, not just the chap who does a bit of cash in hand work so the Social don’t find out. All.

            Regardless of religious faith or ideology, and tbh, there aren’t that many differences when you dig right down, we should all do right.

            But right is objective, and needs perspective, and is sometimes a hard thing to see.

             
    • Well said. This Occupy LSX demo has run it’s course and must not be allowed to turn into a farce. Makes more sense for the activists to disband of their own accord, gain some political capital by doing so & prevent further polarisation of viewpoints.
      If this protest ends in an utter mess then you won’t be able to convince anyone to come out in a similar manner for the next decade, that is until the next generation has grown-up.

       
      • Roger,
        You obviously have some interest in what all the fuss is about and your points have relevance, but its not clear to me, perhaps not to yourself either, whether or not you think the protesters are justified in making us all aware of their, and our, frustrations with the ‘powerful’.

         
  17. The time has come to grow up. You are like a toddler throwing a tantrum against being put to bed, rather than an adult with a reasoned argument. Like a toddler, you are throwing your toys out of your playpen, and not caring who you hit or damage on the way. You have the scalps of two at St Pauls – but none of the bankers. You have mishandled the whole situation, and yet, like a child, you claim “He started it – it’s not my fault!”

    A system cannot be changed from the outside, but only from within.

     
    • Well said,
      so the changes of personnel at St. Pauls you are agreeing has come from within the not so christian system of doing things !

       
      • Who said it was not so Christian? Not I, young man! (and there’s an assumption on my part lol!)

        John Wesley, one of the biggest activists of our time. Martin Luther King, again, a big activist. Ghandi (and no, I can’t spell his first name) a massive supporter of the peaceful protest, all had their ways, but knew how and when to fight in their own way.

        What did they achieve? India gained independence. The black community of America were emancipated. A new church was formed that spoke English and talked to the people where they were about the things that bothered them. (I’ll leave it to you to decide who did what!)

        But when I look at the aims of the Occupy campaign, they are less clear, less practical. What do you realistically hope to achieve?

         
        • Sarah, my friend,
          I think the aims of ‘occupy’ are actually very clear, amongst the mist of demands for clarity. They want an end to greed, and the ‘power’ of money and the ‘powerful’ who use it to keep themselves all conquering and powerful over their supposedly fellow and civilized humans. I am relative to some doing ok in the ‘system’, however I constantly feel like a I am a rat in the biggest ever plague of rats, scrambling and scavenging around for scraps, that the ‘powers that be’ the ‘king rats’, have given us, to keep us alive long enough to make them ‘richer’. (Please excuse all my double meaning, I probably think too much). And before someone accuses me of propagating a conspiracy theory, I am not, its quite simply the way things have become without anyone in particular conspiring to make things this way. Them at the ‘top’ of the heap are mostly there by circumstance, just as we are where we are by circumstance. Some would say this is nature and nature is cruel, yes it can be, but surely that is no longer a valid argument as us ‘clever’ humans have developed. There is a fairer system for living we just have to work at making it fairer.

          Personally Sarah as h.o.p.e. is my ‘name’
          I would hope to help the campaign to achieve a majority of support for the need for real change in the short term. Long term I hope for real change to have begun.
          As radical and utopian as some of my thoughts are I am also realistic enough ( frustratingly ), to not expect the level of change I hope for, for our childrens’ futures, to happen overnight, or at the next useless general election.
          We need democracy, which I believe means the people make the rules, not what we have disguised as democracy where rulers rule over the people. We the majority (99%) are governed by in essence a dictatorship, the powerful allowing us to vote for them, so they can lead the way, their way.

           
          • I appreciate your reply, but I’m seeing a lot of rhetoric,and not a lot of practical application. For example, you want democracy. We currently have one of the most democratic systems in the world. We vote for our MP’s, and the rules get made. What practical way would you see the new system working? In almost all democratic societies there is some form of ruling class, purely because it is more practical that way – we can’t all be farmers, and teachers, and policemen, and make rules, and manufacturers, and doctors and so on. There are professionals in every aspect of our lives.

            I think that there should be more transparency in the banking system, that bonuses should be capped for bankers, those should be in law.

             
          • Sarah hello and I hope your son’s health is improving.
            I am sorry for the rhetoric, but this is how I can express my views. I believe we desire the same results from life but it is the practicalities of implementation. Sadly, I am not able to answer all of my own questions in a practical way, but I am sure there are amongst us people who can; I agree ‘we cant all be ………….’ So would be happy for others to come up with answers, with the proviso that I get to agree to their ideas. Current politics needs to move on and catch up with some modern thinking corporations that have levelled out the hierarchy of management.
            Ideally I want to vote on policies not vote for parties, with administrators i.e. the civil service, acting on the results of a policy.
            Again I do not have the brain power to detail the practicalities of such a system but I do have the brain power to know there are those that do.
            You end your reply with a few points of issue, which I would agree with but only as stepping stones towards my less practical views of a world I want for my children.

             
  18. It seems to me the St Pauls is exhibiting a classic case of gross hypocrisy and certainly the sin of pride. Certain people who *claim* to be Christian, though apparently in name only and not certainly not deed. Have had their stuffy noses put out so much over this they resort to the ultimate tantrum and resign! In fact what should have been happening is The Church, and the rest of us, should indeed be showing our support for anti capitilism and *standing up to be counted* as God intends for us. Instead we have found an apparent Christian church so desperate to preserve the golden goose at the cost of it’s very soul. And clearly being run by *apparent* Christians who think they are certainly holier than thou. They should be ashamed of themselves and actually start doing God’s work instead of hiding behind their false God the mighty dollar (sounds better than pound)

    We too should be ashamed of ourselves for leaving these brave and determined protesters doing our dirty work and for us not joining in. We would be happy to share in the rewards of a succesful campaign.

    It all leaves a bitter taste in one’s mouth.

    God Bless all those prepared to stand up to be counted. To the rest? Up yours!

    Cheers.

     
    • “Stand up to be counted”? OK. The protesters are spoilt self-indulgent brats who speak for no-one but themselves.
      And don’t tell me what I should be doing. Democracy is more than the freedom to agree with you.

       
      • You definition of a spoilt brat is a lot closer to home than you might think!

        I am happy, and grateful the protesters speak for me. Someone needs to. Does that help your confusion?

        It’s bad enough being ripped off by the fat cats in industry, or the politicians. It’s far, far worse when we are being ripped off by the fat cats AND the industry at the same time.

        Probably the biggest undiagnosed sickness in modern western society these days is apathy. I blame the water.

         
      • AND THEY SPEAK FOR ME TOO !!
        AND I believe they speak with the 10s of thousands of direct protesters around the world,
        AND I believe they speak for millions of people who are not bold enough yet to join in visibly, but are equally with them in realising we need to change things.

        Come on BILL, you would not be on this website if a bit of you didn’t care, I dont know if you have children but I do, I have participated in our systems for long enough now to know it is a slippery slope for the vast majority, with a few at the top using those below to prop them up.
        This is just not right ! Surely ?

         
  19. PS: Happy All Saints Day..when we Christians honour those who have died for their faith and who did *The right thing* and stood up to be counted.

     
    • Well said christian !

       
  20. I fail to see what you have and/or hope to achieve by protesting at this particular location. So, can someone explain to me, why do you remain at the cathedral and what are your justifications for continuing to remain there? I have yet to see any explanation for any of those questions and that is all I ask for, not some lofty quote lifted from the Bible and taken out of context.

     
    • because we were blocked from getting into Paternosta Square. Somehow the businesses were able to get the police to do their private security work for them….

       
    • Maybe think of it like this, although i must concede I am not actually there in body, but I am in spirit;

      leave the cathedral to one side, this has become a side issue, think of them as being in London, the capital of this country. Is there somewhere more appropriate than a country’s capital.

       
      • What do you mean you are not actually there?!!

         
        • I mean, ‘I am not there at St. Paul’s’
          Why !! at the end of your question ?

           
          • Perhaps I can answer my own ?

            Fat cat, excuse me for being slow on the uptake of your cynicism (although to be honest I wasn’t really, just been waiting for your reply, alas) , anyway, am I right in thinking you are saying my thoughts are irrelevant if I am not at St. Paul’s ?

             
          • Sorry long lunch! Just supprised at how vocal you are about the camp at St Paul’s to then find out your not there – just struck me as a bit odd – I hope you are at least camping in Finsbury Square and not blogging from home?

             
          • Fat Cat,
            if I am wrong blogging from home, and I feel you are implying this is wrong, then surely you are more wrong, sorry that’s un-fair, just as wrong as I am blogging from (excuse my implication here) your workplace ?
            And can I ask why do you hope I am camping ?

             
          • Because the though of you camping made your argument for staying at St Paul’s credible, alongside your debate on a number of other issues – the moment you admited you were not there I lost interest in your argument. Yes I am at work – but am following with interest, much as you are no doubt – I just dont get the point of the whole protest, without a defined set of reasons for being the camp is as useful as a squat.

             
          • Fat cat come on please !
            Using that train of thought makes your comments/arguments just as non-credible as mine, as I presume you are not at the camp/s either.
            As for the point…..we are!
            As in we are talking about it, debating, arguing about it are we not?

             
        • fat cat i dont know what you do as a job.but are you actually at work or are you on a mission to try and deter people from having a voice on freedom here on the net.so what if human of the planet earth is not at the protest in physical form he supports the views of them.and you who do you support?let me guess….with a name like fat cat what could one imagine

           
          • I may just be fat and like cats!
            Good men and women fought and died so that we can have a voice, so yes everyone should speak out for what you belive in – but I just dont belive that you know what you want!
            On the note of those men and women who died, I hope you are going to make an effort for Rememberance day ‘lest we forget’?

             
          • s.wright
            thanks for your back up.
            but lets not antagonise fat cat to the point where he ceases to engage,
            I am happy he is here, i think he just isn’t quite up to speed on the issues.

             
          • i had an incline that you were going to say that(you like cats and is fat)spooky.ps i like cats too i look after two.i know what i want less greed and more good deeds.peace.i have to rush to work now.pps i remember people that die for freedom and also people that die for no reason everyday of my life.

             
          • human of planet earth. i know. have to rush to work now 🙁 wish i could be at the protest.

             
        • HoPE,

          Thank you for the sentiment – I am glad to be here and am always open to other points of view, hence why I read this blog.

           
          • Fat cat,
            excuse the delay in my response, things to do.
            Your welcome to my sentiment, slightly tongue in cheek yes, but got a feeling you can handle some banter !
            For me if done in the right spirit it helps take the sting out of some commentary.
            In the meantime, I trust you are up to speed on the issues ? tell me you are please ?

             
          • It was disappointing, in a way, to find you weren’t actually a grass roots protester. I’d be working to, except my child has the chicken pox coupled with viral conjunctivitis, and needs his mummy. (So I’m writing an ICT policy whilst he is asleep on my legs)

            I wanted to know what it was like to be there, what the groundswell of opinion was, how the issues practically affected you.

            Never mind, we all have to do what we have to do, and for Human, Fat Cat and I, that would appear to be working!

             
  21. occupy london uphold your faith.you are doing nothing wrong,you are expressing your
    views in a peaceful manner and nothing wrong in that.we are the 99% and this is our
    world.

     
    • But 99% of the population are hardly going to support gimmicks & a bunch of kids who seem to lack life lessons. After all the world has been lurching from crisis to crisis since WWI. Problems did not suddenly appear with the credit crunch. We’ve had plenty of crunches & the system digested them eventually.
      The “flashmob” generation may believe they have found the “way forward” but so did the Baader Meinhof group & the Red Brigades. All faded into insignificance whilst the system just marched on. Twitter & the net plus a few disgruntled youngsters won’t chnage history. Disband now while you still can claim a bit of integrity.

       
      • But Roger,
        The 99% will support the levelling of the playing field which is one of the ‘gimmicks’
        Or are you happy for you, and moreover your children if you have any yet, to be on an eternal slippery slope of struggle to stay upright whilst a few at the top of this slope use/abuse those ‘below’ them to stay at the top.

        Come on, lets get together to balance out the in-equality . I for one have had enough of this rat race and do not want it for my children.
        How about you?

         
      • the (kids,youngsters)children are the futre.i am part of the 99%
        i am 35yrs old and have a job for now.but even i can see the system stinks.change is inevatable.in life you win some you lose some and i truely believe the system is running out of time

         
  22. Congratulations? Having taken a conflict based approach to your protest, seeking to impose your will on others regardless of the consequences, it is inevitable that there will be casualties, whether your direct targets, the city or, as in the case of St Paul’s, its Dean and Chapter, collateral damage. Having the warrior mindset it is a simple step to write of such casualties as the inevitable consequences of the war, even if in the case of Dean Graeme Knowles and Canon Giles Fraser they have become casualties through what they would see as friendly fire.

    Both have clearly said they support the call for economic justice, indeed St Paul’s has a track record of engaging with the city on such matters. But by occupying the ground outside St Paul’s you have placed them in an impossible position. Yes they can and do support the need for economic justice, they both have said so, but as the Dean and Chapter are the trustees of the cathedral, legally responsible for it and the safety of those using it and its grounds, to have failed to take health and safety advice, or to have failed to have followed such advice once given, would have been a reckless act as a trustee. It would invalidate the cathedral’s insurance and have made them personally liable for any claims arising through accident and injury. No doubt being people only too aware of your rights, though on the evidence with little awareness of your responsibilities, if any of you had such an accident or injury you would be suing as fast as you could get to a lawyer.

    In an organised camp-site it is normal health and safety good practice to have clear access for emergency and service vehicles, to have a clear 3 metre separation between every tent, for there to be no stoves or naked flames within tents, to have proper fire-safety officers and first-aiders with the necessary equipment, to have toilet and waste facilities, etc, etc. While some progress has been made in respect of some of these, from what I can see from the pictures, the tent separation and issues to do with naked flames around the tents, by far the greatest risk, has yet to be dealt with. From a health and safety perspective, your camp is still an accident waiting to happen, and the liability if it does still lies with the Dean and Chapter of the Cathedral.

    Anyone who has the legal responsibility for church buildings is saying “There but for the grace of God go I”. If they let you carry on regardless and something goes wrong the Dean and Chapter are in the wrong. If they do anything to move you on you put them in the wrong, because you have determined that you are right and that anyone who does not support you in your war and the way you want to fight it, and who gets hurt as a result is legitimate collateral damage.

    Well bully for you. It is not you that no longer has a job because of your protest. It is not you that will loose your home as a result of your protest. That is for Dean Graeme Knowles and Canon Giles Fraser to deal with. But it is you that will smugly sit back and say what good folks you are holding this protest, and what a shame it is that they resigned, but that you have no responsibility for it. So in your smugness, with the time that you have on your hands, while you continue to occupy the square outside St Paul’, and while you continue to put the remaining Canons of the cathedral at risk of personal liability for anything that might happen, may I encourage you to read and reflect on Luke 6.39-42.

    In the mean time “Oh what a lovely war!” Who are you going to make your next collateral damage?

    Your actions

     
    • What have the police got against the church? The best thing would be if the police stopped forcing the clergy to resign by allowing the protestesters to set up camp in Paternoster Square…..

      … What have insurance companies got against the church? By withdrawing coverage they are forcing St Pauls to evict protesters violently in breach of their christian principles

      ALL Just as logical as the claim that the protesters are responsible.

       
    • Your references to ‘personal liability’
      Correct if I am wrong, I will listen to reason !
      but is not the liability with the insurance provider ? has the cathedral not paid to be insured so as not to be ‘personally’ liable ?

       
      • They will not be insured if they facilitate a situation that leads to an incident. Therein lies the problem.
        Now that the protest is uninvited, it is the camp, organisers and each & every participant who becomes liable. Even if a bystander accidentally trips over a tent.

         
        • Ok i hear what you are saying,
          But as st.pauls has un-invited them and taken legal steps to facilitate this, then surely st. pauls have done what is necessary under their obligations, therefore the obligation of liability passes back to the insurers ?

          This detail aside, is it really relevant in the bigger picture ? really ?
          St. Pauls is not going to burn to the ground is it, or any other major catastrophe, bar someone tripping over a tent.
          The biggest catastrophe so far is how the cathedral has handled common people.

           
          • The liability for accidents, claims for which could run into 10s or even 100s of thousands of pounds once people get their lawyers involved, would be carried by the Cathedral’s insurer if the Dean and Chapter follow the advice given by the Health and Safety experts, which would require the kinds of arrangements I suggested earlier. If the Dean and Chapter choose to ignore that advice, and something goes wrong, say someone trips over a guy rope and cracks their skull, then that liability is personal.

            There is a moral question about whether either the Cathedral’s insurers or the Dean and Chapter should have to be liable, but that is not what the law says. Of course Occupy London could take out Public Liability insurance for this protest event, in which case the Cathedral, and the Dean and Chapter would be covered, but I haven’t heard anything about Occupy London being prepared to act as good citizens and take on its proper responsibility in this respect. I’d be delighted to be wrong, but I’m not going to hold my breath.

            There is a lot of talk about what Jesus would do, and verbal brick-bats being flung at the Cathedral and the Dean and Chapter for the way that they have handled or mis-handled this protest being physically imposed upon them.

            My reading of Jesus is that while he always stood up for what is right, he never did so at someone else’s expense. Thus far all the cost of this protest has been taken by the Cathedral and the Dean and Chapter. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the issue, Occupy London is not bearing the cost, its just free-riding at their personal and corporate expense.

             
          • Stephen,
            Your knowledge of insurance matters is undoubtedly superior to mine, so I will concede the possible outcomes you put forward.
            My arguments on this matter I will finish with by saying
            neither of us actually know the facts as to whether or not the protest has organised public liability (they do take/have legal advice I believe) equally we do not know the cathedrals arrangements. But again, I accept your argument.

            As for this being ‘physically imposed on them’ , my understanding is the cathedral invited/allowed them to protest from the church grounds. Only to then change their minds in an un-christian manner. It was after all THEIR mis-handling which has prompted verbal brick bats being flung at them, but not without cause you must agree surely ?, which I think deep down you would given your own comment about their ‘handling / mis-handling.
            Sadly you ended your last reply referring to what is the real cause of all the issues being discussed around the protests at st. paul’s,…………….money ! or less radical sounding, the abuse of money.
            I say sadly because that seems to be your main bone of contention with the situation at st. paul’s, and not with the moral and/or ethical rights and wrongs.

             
  23. when i came to london last monday i was over-whelmed by everything………….the press attention, the well-organised general assemblies, your head of camp security, the techie tent gang, the finsbury sqaure crew ( who are very mellow people ) and the fact that you guys have a “fixed” agenda , we at occupy nottingham support and salute you 🙂 and wish to strengthen our tiesw with you day by day 🙂 our camp is small but sturdy 🙂 hold your ground

     
  24. Well all of you protestors speak for me and i am very gratefull to you for voicing my opinions. Something has to be done , and this is a start. There is lots of anger in my community , and fear. it does feel as though the ordinary people are being squeezed and feeling the pain while others who are running us , using us to glean their fantanstic wages and bonus’, are just ignoring our plight. I am not being over dramatic. I see members of my family unable to move forward in their lives and feeling inadequacy of being passed over for a job. We dont seem to have any hope anymore so we have no choice but to make a stand. I am not with you physically but my spirit is definatley with you and well done and thankyou .

     
  25. The Eight Beatitudes of Jesus. Written for our times at all times 🙂

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Keep us from being preoccupied with money and worldly goods, and with trying to increase them at the expense of justice.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.” Help us not to be ruthless with one another, and to eliminate the discord and violence that exists in the world around us.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” Let us not be impatient under our own burdens and unconcerned about the burdens of others.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for justice, for they shall be filled.” Make us thirst for you, the fountain of all holiness, and actively spread your influence in our private lives and in society.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.” Grant that we may be quick to forgive and slow to condemn.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are the clean of heart, for they shall see God.” Free us from our senses and our evil desires, and fix our eyes on you.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.” Aid us to make peace in our families, in our country, and in the world.

    Lord Jesus, you said, “Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of justice, for the kingdom of heaven in theirs.” Make us willing to suffer for the sake of right rather than to practice injustice; and do not let us discriminate against our neighbors and oppress and persecute them.

    Our loving healing redeemer. We come before you this day with many things on our hearts and in our minds. We come before you knowing you are a loving God who cares for us in ways deeper than we can understand, and who has a purpose for each one of us. You have promised that we can cast all our anxieties on you because you care for us.

    We Bring to You Now Those Things Worrying Us:

    Our concerns for our health
    Our children and their needs
    The bills that need paying
    Our work
    The activities we are involved in. We pray that in all these things you would be our guide.

    For those who mourn – we pray that they would be blessed and comforted as you have promised.

    For those who are hungry – physically or emotionally – that they would be filled

    For those who are poor – either in spirit or financially – that the Kingdom of God would be theirs.

    For those who show mercy to others – that they will be shown mercy

    For those who are pure in heart – that they would see God

    For the peacemakers – we pray that they would be called sons and daughters of God

    For those who hunger and thirst to see right prevail – may they see right overcome wrong, and may they be filled with peace

    For those who suffer for doing good – may you strengthen and reward them

    For any of us – or our friends who are going through a particularly hard time. May you walk with us carrying us through this time in our lives? May we know your peace when things are in turmoil around us?

    We particularly remember those who are hurting. May they be filled with your amazing love and have a purpose to carry them through this stage of their lives.We pray for all who serve you in the Church and community. For our children and young people, may your light shine in their lives and may you guide them on the path you have for them.

    For each of us may we know your healing within and your Holy Spirit in a real and powerful way in our lives. We ask that this day, and through this week we will follow Jesus’ example to love and serve, and may we know we are redeemed by his love and forgiveness. That whatever hard things we have to face we can call on you for help.

    Today Oh Lord I say yes to you

    To life

    To all that is true and good

    And beautiful.

    Amen

     

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